It's going to be WWIII

[Ben Kenobi]

Seems to me a model based on Japan would also work. Question would have to be how well Afghanistan and Iraq will adapt, or whether they will adapt similarly to Japan.

Actually, scratch that. Japan emulated the ways of the West well before the second world war, after the Meiji restoration.

The only problem with letting them take charge of their own affairs is the timing. Nixon left too soon in Vietnam, and watched the entire work done before then fall away.

[Ned]

Ben, the failue of Vietnamization was caused by Watergate.

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by Skyjack666
(remember appeasement? WWI

WWI was started because countries jumped in too fast because of treaties, and if the Treaty of Versilles was more like the Marshall Plan, Hitler would have never come to power. After he was in, war was inevitable, true. Why aren't we funding renewable resources so our cars don't fund terrorists? Why aren't we funding the peaceful Bahai sect of Islam like the Saudis fund Wahabism? We might need to fight, but we have to build up the idea of peace too.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Zevico

Iran had a revolution in the 70's and I am not sure if suffrage still applies there (it is Fundamentalist and all...)

Iran still has woman suffrage. In fact in Iran anyone at and over the age of fifteen can vote, in that particular sense they are more progressive than any western socalled democracy.

[MrFun]

Whether or not Islam advocates suppression of women -- you first have to clarify which sect of Islam you're talking about.

[Lord Merciless]

Woman Suffrage in the Muslim world.

1920: Albania
1921: Azerbaijan - USSR
1924: Tajikistan - USSR
1924: Kazakstan - USSR
1927: Turkmenistan -USSR
1930: Turkey - Kemal Ataturk's secular state
1945: Indonesia
1946: Palestine
1948: Israel, Iraq - Israel???
1949: Bosnia and Herzegovina - Yugoslavia
1949: Syria - Socialist Baathists supported by USSR
1952: Lebanon
1956: Egypt - Socialist Nasser supported by USSR
1956: Somalia - Socialist revolutionary/dictator Banel(sp?) supported by USSR
1956: Pakistan
1957: Malaysia - >40% Non Muslims, heavy British influence
1962: Algeria -> Socialists supported by USSR
1963: Morocco
1963: Iran - American supported Shah was pissing off all Khomeinis
1964: Sudan
1965: Afghanistan
1970: Yemen - It was People's Republic of Yemen, not the other Yemen.
1972: Bangladesh
1973: Bahrain
1974: Jordan
1980: Iraq (reinstated) - National Socialist Baath party

Tripledoc,

You see, at least of 2/3 of your examples about women suffrages in Muslim countries were due to the efforts of ---- USSR!!!

Long live the proletariat!!!

[Tripledoc]

Well the reason that I put Israel there was that it has a rather large Muslim population under their control. Or attempted control rather.

Granted it was not because of Islam that women were given the right to vote, but because of socialist influence. however nor was it due to Christianity that women were given the right to vote, but arguably in many cases because of socialism too, although that form of socialism was perhaps closer to social democracy.

However nor has Islam as a rule prevented women from gaining the right to vote. In fact Islam has in its teachings granted women economic rights long before that was even considered in many Christian countries.

But the list was merely made to show that Islam as a religion does not prevent women from gaing equal rights. It might be used as an excuse by hardcore fundamentalists to deny woman basic rights, however these denials seems to be politically motivated as in the case of Saudi Arabia. Were in fact no one has any rights, including men, except the ruling family of around 3000 princes or so.

Regarding the headdress, it is the rule in Iran, and was the rule in Afghainstan. Even then where it is not the rule Muslim women insist on wearing this headdress. And that to such an extent that it has been made illegal in some cases. To say that muslim women are being repressed by 'forcing' them to wear the headdress is absurd, when it would seem more repressive to prevent them from wearing it.

Regarding the stoning of women which I gather some people (with malice) think is administered for even the smalles transgressions that is simply not true. This horrible punishiment is metered out to a woman who has committed adultery and in order for it to be carried out at least four witnesses must have seen the woman in the act - in flagrante. A highly unlikely occurance.

And to say that this is done in all Muslim countries is not true, but only in countries were the political system for various reasons is in itself highly oppressive.

Saying that it is neccesarly Islam which causes the repression of women is not very productive, since surely that would taste of Christian imperialism. It is actually discussing things on the same level as Osama bin Laden when he states that it is because of western democracy that there are the problems of paedophilia and a rampant pornographic industry.

However since corporations in the liberal countries make a bundle on porn and the transmission of porn, this sort of repression of women is not to be chastigated. It is much more constructive to critizise Islam since further wealth can be generated by creating an atmosphere where people are led to believe , or grudgingly accept at least, that democracy can be created by gunpoint.

Of course then the reason behind the 'liberation' of the Muslim woman might point to something far more sinister. An atavistic urge on behalf of these latterday conquerors to posses the women of the vanquished. If not directly, then virtually.

[Arrian]

I have to question the value of quoting suffrage figures for countries where the victor in "elections" tends to get 100% of the vote, if you know what I mean.

-Arrian

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Arrian
I have to question the value of quoting suffrage figures for countries where the victor in "elections" tends to get 100% of the vote, if you know what I mean.

I know what you mean. However what I was trying to refute was the fact that the person I responded to made a smug connection between Islam, Tyranny, and backwardness. The question was whether there is in fact a logical and coherent connection between those three. In my opinion there is no such connection. It is much more complex.

[Az]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


You see, at least of 2/3 of your examples about women suffrages in Muslim countries were due to the efforts of ---- USSR!!!

Long live the proletariat!!!

[Defiant]

Tripledoc,
They are out of the caves, all the nations you mentioned, damn near, can't stop killing over crap like religion, most of these nations are so interbreeded that the idea of killing Serbs in Croatia, or Albanians in Sebia is rediculous to the point of insane and these countries want to continued this kind of crap, it is time to end it because now it is having affects on our nation. And in cases like these woman are the ones really taking the beating. Islam seems to be a common denominator.

[MrFun]

Kinda besides the point, but when we talk about religious extremism in this world, we often forget that it exists in United States when discussing this.

Look at how many religious right extremists in United States justified the murder of Matthew Shepherd several years ago.

[Az]

Yes, but there it's norm. Did you know that there are many people arested in Egypt for forming gay clubs ( that are illegal )? I won't even start talking about the rest of the arab world.

[Defiant]

Mr Fun,
Yes we have some, but our gov't doesn't condone it and we are not digging up 300,000 bodies in Illinois, a little bit of difference.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Iranians have held numerous deminstrations against clerical rule but the Islamists control the Army and the radical clerics have imprisioned many people who have worked towards change in Iran.

BBC reports outbreak of violence in Saveran, in Baluchi area of southeastern Iran. 5 dead. Other, less reliable(?) sources like worldnetdaily report upto 50 dead, city closed off. Apparently the police stopped a 10 year old on a bicycle for something traffic related - he didnt speak Farsi (its a baluchi speaking town) and bit them - they beat him, crowd attacked police, police used force against crowd.
Baluchi are mainly Sunni muslim, in contrast to Shia majority in Iran.

Also AP reports that fundamentalist vigilantes beat up a leading reformist MP in Yazd.