Persecution of christians

[Caligastia]

BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
NYC district denies
birth of Jesus?
Nativity scene barred as not 'historically accurate representation of an event'

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Posted: November 12, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

In a dispute over display of holiday symbols, New York City schools are allowing Jewish menorahs and Islamic crescents but barring Christian nativity scenes, alleging the depiction of the birth of Christ does not represent a historical event.

In pleadings with a federal court in defense of the ban, New York City lawyers asserted the "suggestion that a crèche is a historically accurate representation of an event with secular significance is wholly disingenuous."

The Jewish and Islamic symbols are allowed, the district says, because they have a secular dimension, but the Christian symbols are "purely religious."

Robert J. Muise, who will challenge the school policy at a federal court hearing tomorrow in Brooklyn, told WorldNetDaily be believes most Americans don't see it that way.

"The birth of Jesus is a historical event which serves as the basis for celebration of Christmas," Muise stated. "It's of importance for both Christians and non-Christians."

Muise's Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center filed a motion to temporarily restrain the city from enforcing its ban on nativity scenes. The center asserts New York's policy "promotes the Jewish and Islamic faiths while conveying the impermissible message of disapproval of Christianity in violation of the U.S. Constitution."

The Michigan group says one public-school principal issued a memo encouraging teachers to bring to school "religious symbols" that represent the Islamic and Jewish religions, but made no mention of Christianity.

Jewish menorahs adorned the halls of the school as part of the authorized displays, the More Center said, but students were not allowed to make and similarly display nativity scenes

A parent who wrote a letter of complaint to her son's teacher received a copy of the school's "Holiday Displays" policy in response.

Kate Ahlers, communications director for New York City's law department, says schools can use things that are secular like menorahs, stars and snowflakes, but the crèche is considered religious.

"There is a separation of church and state that is part of the Constitution," she claimed. "It's a clear belief that people try to follow in schools and public office, and schools are saying they adhere to that belief."

The point of schools, she added, "is not to debate religion; the point of schools is to teach children."

The federal civil-rights lawsuit was filed on behalf of Andrea Skoros and her two elementary-school children against the city of New York and several school officials.

Skoros and her children are devout Roman Catholics.

"Can Christianity be erased from a public school?" Muse asked in a statement. "Can 'Christ' be removed from Christmas? We will soon find out."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35544

also...

School bans saying 'christmas'

Christmas in America becomes battleground


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It seems to me that christians are increasingly being discriminated against. Christian traditions are derided and in some cases punished. Is this 'tolerance'?

[DinoDoc]

Bah! If you want persecution of Christians, look to the Sudan.

[Caligastia]

It only counts if it happens in the US.

[MrFun]

Re: Persecution of christians

Originally posted by Caligastia


The Jewish and Islamic symbols are allowed, the district says, because they have a secular dimension, but the Christian symbols are "purely religious."


It seems to me that christians are increasingly being discriminated against. Christian traditions are derided and in some cases punished. Is this 'tolerance'?

Yes, I do have a problem with this aspect of favoring some religions over others for what appears to be blatant political motivations.


And how can anyone claim that the birth of Jesus Christ is not a historical event, when he was a real person and was born into this world -- regardless if you believe in his role as a religious leader???

Someone explain that to me?

[Sprayber]

Can someone show me where the Constitution says that religious symbols are to be banned from public places. Also, Exactly who are the people deciding what is religious and what is secular? I wonder if Jews and Muslims are happy that their symbols are regarded as non religious.

[Timexwatch]

How is the burning of a Menorah for seven nights on a tiny amount of oil any more historical than say, Jesus feeding the crowds of people until they were full with a fish and a few loaves of bread?

[Berzerker]

And how can anyone claim that the birth of Jesus Christ is not a historical event

Christmas is a pagan observance, from the X-mas tree on down to Santa Claus and the yule log. And no serious researcher would claim Jesus was born on Dec 25, a date falling suspiciously ~3 days after the winter solstice as the sun first makes it's northward climb toward spring, the same day as a Roman observance...hmm... I mention this only because many Christians look down their noses at pagans.

My religion involves cannabis, will they let me bring thy holy bong and sacramental bud? Well, I'm sure there are Rastafarians in NY... But their religion has been outlawed by Christians and Christians are complaining about religious persecution? But hey, if it isn't the 10 Commandments it's nativity scenes. When these zealous restorers of the true faith say the depiction of Jesus' birth is not historically accurate, aren't they saying Christianity is somewhat of a false religion? That seems to be message... It doesn't matter if the depiction is an accurate portrayal of the birth of Christ, only that some/most Christians accept it as at least a symbolic if not historical depiction . But by all means, let the city of NY inform Christians everywhere just what would constitute an accurate depiction. Strange position for city bureaucrats to be putting themselves in, they will decide if your religion is historically accurate.

[Ben Kenobi]

things that are secular like menorahs,

/me stirs the pot.

I see no persecution here. Clearly the menorah has absolutely no religious significance or symbolism, and is hence permissible for display in a secular society. Whereas the opposite is true for the Christian nativity scene, in that it has huge religious symbolism in the birth of Christ.



Berz:

What does the historicity of the nativity scene have anything to do with Christmas trees. Secondly, what part of the nativity scene strikes you as particularly ahistorical? I believe that it is an accurate historical account.

3 edits!

[Berzerker]

Hey, let's look at this from a different perspective.

What if it wasn't just the banning of nativity scenes? What if those who insisted the nativity scene was accurate were being punished (well, moreso than having their depiction banned)? Perhaps lashed to a rack and stretched (ah, that makes my back feel good). Maybe tied to some wood and set on fire (certainly that warmth would feel good with winter right around the corner).

Yeah yeah, Christians aren't being punished like people were punished during the Inquisition, but that's just a matter of degree. The principle at work here is the same, the state has decided some of us just aren't practicing the faith correctly and need to be "re-educated" on the finer aspects of their religion.

[Ramo]

No one's being persecuted.

The school is showing favoritism towards certain religions (which is wrong, and unconstitutional due to the establishment clause), but it is not persecuting Christians.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Berzerker
My religion involves cannabis, will they let me bring thy holy bong and sacramental bud?

[Berzerker]

Ben -

Berz:

What does the historicity of the nativity scene have anything to do with Christmas trees.

Nothing, just showing how Christmas already relies heavily on pagan symbolism.

Secondly, what part of the nativity scene strikes you as particularly ahistorical? I believe that it is an accurate historical account.

I wasn't there, so I couldn't say. That was my point... NYC lawyers don't know either so their claims of historical accuracy are on it's face.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Ramo
No one's being persecuted.

The school is showing favoritism towards certain religions (which is wrong, and unconstitutional due to the establishment clause), but it is not persecuting Christians.

So showing favoritism to every religion other than christianity is not persecuting christians? Okayyy...

[Ben Kenobi]

Nothing, just showing how Christmas already relies heavily on pagan symbolism.

Well maybe it's time to clean haus. A nativity scene would seem to counteract many of the pagan traditions of Christmas.

[Berzerker]

The school is showing favoritism towards certain religions (which is wrong, and unconstitutional due to the establishment clause), but it is not persecuting Christians.

Let's see, you can bring your religion... but not you guys...
Like I said, no one is being torched on a pyre of wood, but telling people their religion is not valid enough to be displayed is a form of persecution.