Persecution of christians

[DaShi]

Yes, I agree with that.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Here is a few snippets that shed some light on the existence of Jesus and the persecution of Christians in case anyone is interested:

The Talmud ("teaching" or "study") is a multi-volume compilation containing the Mishnah (oral legal teachings) and Jewish commentary on the Mishnah (Gemara). The accepted version was compiled by Rabbis Akiba (died AD 135) and Meir and completed by Rabbi Judah in AD 200.

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. . . but since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." Babylonia Sanhedrin 43A

Yes, Yesua was one of those whose teachings are claimed to be incorporated into the Jesus myth. The Jesus-mythers claim that Jesus is a composite figure. But this guy wasn't crucified, he was "hanged" (actually, the Hebrew phrase refers to the custom of excution by stoning followed by the hanging of the corpse from a tree).

Josephus has already been addressed, and I note that none of your other historical references record that Jesus existed: only the existence of Christians and comments on what they believed (typically decades later) about Jesus.

We have no actual testimony from Pontius Pilate concerning Jesus. This is itself significant, as we have details of numerous other troublesome religious leaders.

Another major complication is Appolonius of Tyana, the "Roman Christ", whose symbol was the fish (of Pisces: then a single fish). These "Christians" (the generic title refers to the followers of a "god-man") apparently were persecuted by Nero.

[Ned]

Last month, the Discovery Channel ran a piece on the Ostuary of James, brother of Jesus and son of Joseph. It appears that ostuary is authentic and that the Jesus mentioned on the ostuary is Jesus Christ.

I will look for a link to the program if there are any who doubt, like Thomas, what I just said.

[Lincoln]

Okay, you guys win. Jesus didn't exist. I have a feeling that your descendants will also be saying that George Washington did not exist either in another two thousand years if our archives are not preserved. Someone will show the fictious account of the cherry tree incident and they will say "see, it's all a fraud!" It is funny how holocausts and other historical facts have a way of disappearing over a few hundred years or less and yet evidence still remains after billions of years of a warm pond that is the true creator of us all. Anyway, I have to get ready for my trip to Thailand so audios amigos!

edit: I almost forgot the response to UR's link on the last page regarding the 'integrity' of Richard Dawkins.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3907.asp

[Ned]

Also, a Roman museum, I don't know which one, has a display of two records of Jesus, son of Joseph of Nazareth: one a census record and one a prison record.

[Tripledoc]

Why the christians and not the others?

Isn't it obvious. The state is the religion. The state needs to convert the Christians to their cause. The others will be rendered irrelevant anyway, so why bother upsetting them?

[Ned]

Here is a link to the Discovery Channel DVD on the story of the James ostuary.

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&langId=-1&productId=37753&partnumber=685750&gs=1

[Jack the Bodiless]

On the subject of Yeshu, there is this:

Further, both Martin and Wells point out that in the few places where Jesus is discussed in the Talmud he is often assigned to a time distant from early first century. Martin notes the Talmud contains references to Yeshu ben Pantera, "...a magician whose mother's name was Mary Magdala and who was crucified in BC 126", and to Yeshu the Nazarene who lived during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus, ruler of Palestine from 104 to 79 BC (p.50). Wells points out that when rabbinic documents do begin mentioning Jesus they assign him to times varying by as much as two hundred years (1996, p.46).

Note that THIS Jewish "Yeshu" (Pantera) WAS supposedly crucified, and was associated with Mary Magdalene: but more than a century before Jesus supposedly lived.

It's details like this that make Jesus look like a composite of myths.

...And the latest word on the ossuary is "fake", so I wouldn't put too much faith in a TV program from a month ago. IIRC, it was THEN thought to be genuine.

[Jack the Bodiless]

I've just noticed something...

Lincoln, why did you (or your source) miss out a relevant chunk of that Sanhedrin 43A quote?

I've highlighted the missing piece:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover

Notice the reference to stoning.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
On the subject of Yeshu, there is this:

Note that THIS Jewish "Yeshu" (Pantera) WAS supposedly crucified, and was associated with Mary Magdalene: but more than a century before Jesus supposedly lived.

It's details like this that make Jesus look like a composite of myths.

...And the latest word on the ossuary is "fake", so I wouldn't put too much faith in a TV program from a month ago. IIRC, it was THEN thought to be genuine.

On the ostuary, I gave a link to the page where you can order the DVD of the Program. The conclusion was that it was authentic. If you have more updated information, please provide a link.

[Lincoln]

Well Jack, what does the referrence to stoning have to do with anything? Stoning was a form of punishment used agains people like Jesus who were accused of violating relegious law during that time. Is that just another gnat you are straining at? Jesus isn't such a bad guy once you get to know him. You might want to check some sources that were favorable to him as well. I do not search for the whole truth about Bill Clinton for example at Newsmax. But the fact that even the detractors of Jesus wrote about his existence proves that you are grasping at straws. Infidels.org really is not the last word in regard to Jesus. Anyway, see you later. I just stopped back to edit my last post.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
On the ostuary, I gave a link to the page where you can order the DVD of the Program. The conclusion was that it was authentic. If you have more updated information, please provide a link.

Programs typically take a while to produce. Since that time, the ostuary has indeed, been found to have been a fake.

[Sava]

There is still no historical proof Jesus ever existed.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Programs typically take a while to produce. Since that time, the ostuary has indeed, been found to have been a fake.

All I ask for is a link.

I find it strange that Discovery would run a piece whose sole focus is the issue of authenticity, show the scientists who agree that the ostuary is authentic, and then fail provide an update if it was available.

A link. That is all a I ask.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Well Jack, what does the referrence to stoning have to do with anything? Stoning was a form of punishment used agains people like Jesus who were accused of violating relegious law during that time.

What's the most famous claim made about Jesus?

That he was crucified, and came back from the dead.

But the fact that even the detractors of Jesus wrote about his existence proves that you are grasping at straws.

Fallacy of "begging the question". First, you need to establish that the detractors of Jesus actually did write about Jesus.

And Infidels doesn't have an "axe to grind" on this issue: it matters little whether Jesus was historical or entirely mythical. My own position is that he could easily be both: a historical person who acted as the nucleus for so much pre-existing myth from multiple sources that he might as well be entirely mythical. Rather like Merlin (who WAS a historical figure).

An Ossuary link:
Indications that the "Brother of Jesus" Inscription is a Forgery