Some Thoughts on Christian Faith

[Ben Kenobi]

That doesn't make any sense. You're saying that if its probable that God exists you should be sure he exists and if its improbable that he exists you should be completely unsure. There's no logical symetry there.

That's how science works, Boshko. Science seeing something as 'improbable' cannot rule out the existence of something. It just means that we do not know enough to come to any firm conclusions. Something that is considered 'probable' becomes generally accepted, simply because of the bulk of evidence supporting the position, causing the assessment to shift from improbable to probable.

You're missing what I was saying. I was saying that is Christian morality is good on its own terms (and not because Jesus says its good) then that's not a reason (in and of itself) to believe in Jesus' divinity.

Jesus has authority because of the resurrection. No resurrection no authority. The resurrection is proof of Jesus' divinity not his claims about himself.

But what does "believes in Christ" mean and why is it so important? That's what I'm looking for here. I'm working on the assumption that the only explanation for why faith is important that makes any sense is that its a special/rare/hard transformative experience that connects you intimately with God.

That's what I'm trying to get at from the resurrection. To believe that Jesus is the Son of God is what it means to believe in Christ, and you cannot do this unless you understand the resurrection.

It is important because it allows one to experience the complete connection with God. Now, I agree with Elok, that we cannot experience that full connection until after Christ returns, due to our intrinsic sinfulness, but Christians grow closer to God during their time on earth, rather than growing further apart from him.

Because in every other religion (and in most Christian denominations) people claiming any kind of vaguely mystical communion with God are damn rare. I don't see why Pentecostals should be special.

What do you mean by a mystical connection? What's so different between the gifts exhibited by the Pentecostals and a housewife? That's the main reason for my analogy.

None that I know of. But it makes sense philosophically.

God desires that every man be saved. Granted, some will always choose to reject God, but why should God erect more barriers than absolutely necessary in order to return people to him?

The vast majority of Christians are decent well-meaning people for whom faith didn't really transform them and who don't really think all that much about their connection with God on a daily basis, but still honestly believe that Jesus is God.

How do you know most of these Christians are not thinking about their relationship with God?

Secondly, in order to assess the transformative power of Christ, you must be able to look at these Christians before they became one. I have seen many people, including myself turn their lives around after professing faith in Christ.

if faith is really that easy and low-maintenance why is it so important?

Is it easy to give up all your desires and to devote them to God? No. Is it easy to maintain when you have to keep working to keep God in the forefront? No. But it is the most important thing you can do.

Here's what you must understand. Without professing faith in Christ, you are really moving farther from God every day. It is only once you admit that you have sinned that God can forgive you. That's why it is so important, and this is why we must be grateful that God allows us to.

[Ben Kenobi]

Theban:

I don't think it matters. To quote the bible or any religious text is useless as the text is irrelevant.

Well, where do you think your 'episcopal background' comes from? Surely, if tradition were all that mattered, why are you not Catholic?

Christians refer to the bible as the Word of God: yet it by definition CANNOT be the Word of God as the WoG would have to be perfect-otherwise it didn't come from God. Man is imperfect, and therefore cannot fathom perfection. So any prophet attempting to transscribe the WoG, however close, will always fail.

Not bad. However, I take issue with your argument of a Prophet. A prophet does not speak for himself, but God speaks through him. Hence, while he may not fully understand what he is writing, it still remains the word of God.

Just because man is imperfect also does not mean that man cannot fathom a perfect bible. Man can partially understand perfection, and this understanding will improve over time.

A good analogy from CS Lewis is of a father and son, when the son is just beginning to walk. Is not the father pleased in his infant son when he takes his first few steps? Yet what father would be satisfied with anything less than a firm, confident stride in a young man?

God is easy to please, yet difficult to satisfy. The imperfect understanding in the beginning is enough to please God, but it will not satisfy him.

That's the limiting I'm talking about. How do you know that Zeus isn't an aspect of God? Pretty arrogant for a mortal.

Well, I don't go by the advice of a mortal on these matters. I go by Christ.

[Theben]

Jon: The bum analogy doesn't work. I'm saying that all paths to God are equally valid.
Also people don't really 'worship' money. There's nothing mystical about it.

there are deffinitely things in life which are not good, and I choose not to glorify those things

there is also difference between nature, and God

while I see His hand in the workings of the universe, I don't worship the workings

I'm not saying you worship the workings. I'm saying those 'workings' ARE God- just in different form. Our human minds are too feeble to really comprehend the myriad of ways he can present himself(i'm sticking with the masculine for now) to us. He could be Zeus, or nature, or a multiitude of kami spirits, Allah, Yawhe, a 'force', etc.

Boshko:

Even non-theistic religions?

Are you referring to religions such as animism, ancestral veneration, etc.? Why not? Again, who are we to say how God chooses to represent himself?

Ben:

Not bad. However, I take issue with your argument of a Prophet. A prophet does not speak for himself, but God speaks through him. Hence, while he may not fully understand what he is writing, it still remains the word of God.

Then all texts should say the same thing. Why would God repeat himself, and say something different to boot, if he was right the 1st time?

Just because man is imperfect also does not mean that man cannot fathom a perfect bible. Man can partially understand perfection, and this understanding will improve over time.

I disagree. Man can partially understand perfection, or completely understood anything less than perfect, but can never fully understand perfection. To do so requires perfection. And if you've ever played 'telephone' as a kid, you should understand how understanding degrades, not improves, over time. The different religious books, the religious wars, etc., I see little improvement in understanding in that direction, but I do see a lot of confusion. I think the historical record supports my analysis over yours.

You yourself say that "God desires that every man be saved." I think that God would be a smart enough cookie to realize the failures inherent in our design, and allow access to him in various ways. Surely you don't think that he would knowingly condemn billions of souls to hell solely b/c they had no knowledge of Jesus? Or even of monotheism?

[Jon Miller]

well

directly in nature, and deffinitely in Zeus

I see a lot of things I do not want to worship

so if that is god, I am not worshiping him

there is a reason why I worship God, and that is because he is good

while I have been a christian, of one form or another, all my life, but for those who followed another religion for a while, the bum analogy works for them extremely well

because they were eating the rotten bread, and found it lacking, and so are trying to show the fresh bread to others

note that this works for all converts, I personally have no problem with other religions trying to convert me, I would think that there religion was not that great, or that they were selfish, if they were not

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

and there are diffinitely people who worship money

you see them all the time in capitalists

they are to be pitied

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I will attempt in answer to your question to Ben

because we are unable to understand all the God wants to communicate (especially by ourselves), and so he writes for us at that time and place and situation

and for another situation he has other stuff written, in the hope that people there will get it

it does make things hard for us, now, because so much of what he inspired was written so very long ago

but He was smart, he made it so that it (scripture) will have different meanings to people in different times

it takes study though

the best way to determine if something is from God is whether or not it agrees with what else is from God (also to communicate with God through prayer and meditation)

Jon Miller

[Theben]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I see a lot of things I do not want to worship

so if that is god, I am not worshiping him

What works for others may not for you.

because they were eating the rotten bread, and found it lacking, and so are trying to show the fresh bread to others

Again, one path is better for some than others. But it doesn't invalidate the other paths.

[Jon Miller]

but if it is good for you

wouldn't you want to share?

I am maintainig that it is good to witness as christians put it

not that it is impossible to reach God through other paths

and it is not what works for others may not work for me

what I am saying, is if god is everything, I do not want to worship him

because there are things I don't want to worship

therefore I am not worshiping the same god as some others

and as such, want them to worship my God

Jon Miller

[Bosh]

Well, Bosh, we don't see Christians as those who ARE reconnected with God. Christians are the ones who are trying to reconnect.

So then faith doesn't matter as long as you try to have faith?

Hesychasy is like the spiritual equivalent of SEAL training, and not everyone has the strength and faith to see it through.

So you don't need to go whole hog to get into Heaven, so basically all the mysticism/asceticism does for you (in the strictly utilitarian sense) is possibly give you a more peaceful outlook on life, in this life?

Hell is the wicked having to tolerate their own odious presence for eternity, without hope of an end to it, without decent people to manipulate, without mercy.

Well neither me or my gf are Christians by any strech of the imagination and I hardly find her presense "odious" and the same goes for countless great people who I'm sure will be Christians. The problem with your "hell is other people" argument is that the only thing I'd mind about spending eternity with the faithless is the dislike I'd have for spending eternity doing anything. I'd probably like the company in Hell better than the company on earth, since the HUGE subsection of annoying religious types of all stripes that would be populating hell would be taken down too many notches to get to me (its a bit hard to be a self-richeous hypocritical bastard when you're burning in hell).

Nonchristians may yet come to salvation but it's a lot easier to get somewhere when you have an accurate map.

What about:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
?

That's how science works, Boshko. Science seeing something as 'improbable' cannot rule out the existence of something. It just means that we do not know enough to come to any firm conclusions. Something that is considered 'probable' becomes generally accepted, simply because of the bulk of evidence supporting the position, causing the assessment to shift from improbable to probable.

No.
In science if the evidence to points to A being improbable people will consider A as being improbable. If the evidence points to B being probable then people will consider B as being probable. You've got to have symetry. It doesn't make any sense at all to be more sure of B then you are doubtful of A.

Jesus has authority because of the resurrection. No resurrection no authority. The resurrection is proof of Jesus' divinity not his claims about himself.

That's not what I was saying at all.
Lets say that Jesus says "doing X is a really good idea" and X is, in fact, a really good idea. Now if you can justify why X is a very good idea without referring to Jesus than it doesn't make sense to be a Christian because you think that X is a good thing. Jesus' authority isn't needed and you don't need to believe that Jesus stopped being dead to justify your belief that X is a good thing. Follow me?

It is important because it allows one to experience the complete connection with God.

How? Why? I don't feel like you've given me a very clear explanation of what faith is and why its important. There's gotta be more to it then "because Jesus stopped being dead we know he's the real deal and should pay attention to him."

What do you mean by a mystical connection?

To go back to the Sufis again, the basic path required a lot of study first get a good grounding in shari'a and philosophy and then the ascention through a variety of stages in which all that is not divine within you is slowly stripped away (or the proportions of the aspects of divinity within you are brought into balance depending on who you read). To quote Elok:

is like the spiritual equivalent of SEAL training, and not everyone has the strength and faith to see it through.

That's what I'm talking about, doesn't it make sense that a real intimate connection with got should entail something along those lines. I just don't buy denominations in which EVERY SINGLE PERSON is so imbued with the divine so much that God's moving their tongue for them (just seems like the religious equivalent of this bit of spam I just got:

I have an incredible offer for you. My boyfriend was unsatisfied with his penis size, he tried everything to enlarge his penis but nothing was working. Finally he found this website . In less then 2 weeks he was seeing noticable results of 2 inches, and said it was very easy, all natural, and effective. Believe me it was worth it

if you know what I'm getting at). Shouldn't something as important and meaningful as faith require a little work, and if its so easy that it doesn't require any work why is it so important.

How do you know most of these Christians are not thinking about their relationship with God?

I used to be a Christian and have talked to plenty of Christians. Maybe I was a real exception, but I always thought of my religion in terms of how I was going to make myself a better person in a very concrete way and thought that was all that really mattered. I never really thought about having a relationship with God at all and just used him a oversized moral guide/inspiration. I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who think like I did and many many more who don't give any of the issues we're talking about much thought at all.

Is it easy to give up all your desires and to devote them to God?

So faith is giving up all of your desires? Talk about giving up desires tends to rub me the wrong way (really don't care for Buddhism at all because of this) there's too many things I care about and love for me to want to have much to do with this kind of thinking. Also I'm not a big fan of morality based on stripping away bad desires, like a more positive viewpoint (ie "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" rather than "don't do unto others what you would not have them do unto you").

[Elok]

Dude, I thought you started this thread after reading my "Redemptive Hallucinations" thread. If so, you might have noticed that I do not distinguish between Christians and non-Christians as the Saved vs. the Hellbound. The people in Hell are general-purpose stinkers, from pharisees to magicians to atheists, inclusive of every class of creep along the entire spectrum of religious belief or lack thereof.

Bear in mind that salvation is an uphill battle, first of all, and second of all that when God judges, he judges as God. When we judge someone, we base our opinion on their words, or their actions, or their appearance, or some other facet of their outward being. I think we typically make the extreme error, in the whole faith vs. works controversy, of seeing God's judgment in the same way. A being who can see into the very depths of your heart and knows you better than you know yourself doesn't need to go by outward manifestations of your intent. He looks directly to the Heart, without masks or pretences to block his view. Which of course is the reason for "judge not, lest ye be judged." Only the three members of the Trinity are really capable of judging a man himself, and not his actions, or his thoughts, at one time or another.

As to my position on monasticism, most Christian doctrines hold that we are all immersed in spiritual warfare, that hate and love fight all around and through us at all times. In every war, there are three things that can be done by common citizens to help. The first is to just pitch in to keep civilization functioning as best we can, dodging the bombs falling and licking our wounds while we attend to day-to-day life. This is the position most of us are in. Farmers, doctors, engineers, garbagemen, and everybody else. Then there are those who make it their goal to protect and aid others, to patch up battlefield wounds and guide refugees to safety, and for that purpose we have the priests.

And then there are the spiritual equivalent of Civ2's partisans, the ones who throw all peacetime duties aside and fight back tooth and nail. They might not even have the slightest chance of winning; certainly one guy with a deer rifle can't really pose a threat to tanks and helicopters. The fighters-the monks-are the people who just couldn't stand to do anything but fight back with all their strength, no matter how futile it seemed. Nobody knows what temptation is like so much as a monk does, and their prayers and advice can inspire and help us all.

Ultimately, all three kinds of people are of tremendous use to society. It's just a matter of how you serve best.

The quote you made involves the purpose of the incarnation (I think). This is a huge post already so I'll start another.

[Jon Miller]

I think that sometimes those who do not know that they are getting redeemed by Jesus can still be redeemed by him

I mean, consider the old testament

Jon Miller

[Elok]

Here we go again.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I think I disagree with Ben on the reason for Christ's resurrection. I don't think proving power had anything to do with it. When Christ died and came to life again, he did it in the way he did as an example to the human race, but he went through the act itself as a necessity for undoing the harm of the fall.

We do not believe in death as part of God's original plan, like I said. The body and soul influence each other in strange ways, and the decay of our being over time came when we fell into evil way back whenever. The bible makes this clear...kinda. Anyway, it's standard Orthodox doctrine that the parting of the soul and body is deeply unnatural, and before Christ came to earth nobody knows what happened after death. The general consensus is "Hades," a state of being without hope or happiness, and the resurrection of Christ opened up the gates of heaven as a vastly preferable alternative.

By the way, so long as I'm on the subject, I think the best way to imagine Hell is probably to think of spending all eternity in Junior High, or as a contestant on "Survivor." Everybody's too busy hating, distrusting, and scheming against everyone else to actually enjoy themselves. You can never get used to it, you can't really leave, and the real hell of it is, you know you went to a fair amount of trouble to get there in the first place.

Back on topic. Forget the Blood Atonement crap, that tells us that God demanded repayment of our "debt" and let Jesus take the fall for us. First of all, advocates of the theory always refer to the debt as something that had to be paid before life went back to normal, and thereby reduce the almighty to a subordinate to a higher ideal of justice rather than the progenitor of it. Second of all, it doesn't chime with scripture-the father of the Prodigal Son forgave the debt without thought, and the King in one parable did the same for a servant who owed ten thousand talents or thereabout (which is something like fifty billion in today's money, BTW). The only real obstacle to forgiveness is our own stubbornness and pride, and in our case what happened was something akin to the Prodigal's brother going out, finding his brother brooding with the pigs, nudging him with his foot, and pointing the way home. Christ's own formula for salvation was, "take up your cross and follow me," and just to prove the point he led the way himself. Abandoning all earthly care, giving up his pride, his strength, even his life, to find the way back to God. He showed us that we have to find our way home one way or another, and none come to the Father except by following the path Christ walked. Whether a non-Christian would know to do that without deliberate guidance is open to debate, but certainly saying that your opinions exclude you directly from Paradise makes no sense. Beliefs are only relevant to salvation insofar as they give you a push in the right or wrong direction.

[Ben Kenobi]

Elok:

I think I disagree with Ben on the reason for Christ's resurrection. I don't think proving power had anything to do with it. When Christ died and came to life again, he did it in the way he did as an example to the human race, but he went through the act itself as a necessity for undoing the harm of the fall.

No, just needed to clarify my earlier point. I have no hassles whatsoever with what you have posted here.

Proving power is the side benefit of the resurrection, it shows us that Christ is the Son of God, but it was not his main reason for suffering and dying on the cross. You did an excellent job of explaining the atonement.

BTW, I loved the Screwtape Letters. I just finished the book in it's entirety. That you for the wonderful recommendation. It's a good guide for Christians as to living a better life in Christ, what to look out for and what to expect.

[Ben Kenobi]

Boshko:

No.
In science if the evidence to points to A being improbable people will consider A as being improbable. If the evidence points to B being probable then people will consider B as being probable. You've got to have symetry. It doesn't make any sense at all to be more sure of B then you are doubtful of A.

I guess where we differ is in our perception of probable and improbable.

To me, they are not necessarily symmetric. Probable means that there is a substantial burden of evidence in favour of something being true, rather than a simple preponderence in favour of something being more likely than not.

Something that is improbable lacks this evidence, although it may be true, we just don't know.

Lets say that Jesus says "doing X is a really good idea" and X is, in fact, a really good idea.

Good. How do you in fact know that x is a really good idea? Could not your perception be flawed?

I trust Christ because of the resurrection, so that what he says ought to go even if I don't fully understand why.

How? Why? I don't feel like you've given me a very clear explanation of what faith is and why its important. There's gotta be more to it then "because Jesus stopped being dead we know he's the real deal and should pay attention to him."

Full connection is something we get to experience when we go to heaven, so it is hard to describe.

As for what faith is, that's all there is to it, you believe in God, you have faith, you do what he asks because you love him and you trust him. Why should it be more than that?

That's what I'm talking about, doesn't it make sense that a real intimate connection with got should entail something along those lines. I just don't buy denominations in which EVERY SINGLE PERSON is so imbued with the divine so much that God's moving their tongue for them (just seems like the religious equivalent of this bit of spam I just got:

Is it impossible for God to bless those who are willing in this way? Not all Pentecostals speak in tongues, BTW, although many of them do, and those who speak in tongues are not restricted to the clergy.

'real intimate connection?'

That's the heart of the matter, eh? Does one have to be speaking in tongues in order to have a real intimate connection? I think just loving and trusting God counts as both real and intimate.

is like the spiritual equivalent of SEAL training, and not everyone has the strength and faith to see it through.

Agreed. Not everyone is called to the same functions. Many parts but one body.

However, do these people who train do so under their own strength? If they work really really hard will they feel closer to God?

if you know what I'm getting at). Shouldn't something as important and meaningful as faith require a little work, and if its so easy that it doesn't require any work why is it so important.

That's what I'm trying to get across. Is it easy enough to change your life around from what you want to what God wants? That's the work. Is it easy to admit that you have been wrong, and that you want to be forgiven for all the harm that you have done over the course of your life?

Is it easy?

I used to be a Christian and have talked to plenty of Christians. Maybe I was a real exception, but I always thought of my religion in terms of how I was going to make myself a better person in a very concrete way and thought that was all that really mattered. I never really thought about having a relationship with God at all and just used him a oversized moral guide/inspiration. I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who think like I did and many many more who don't give any of the issues we're talking about much thought at all.

No, you are right, faith in Christ ought to result in a real concrete change in your life. However, this comes after repentence and forgiveness. It is only when you are no longer burdened, and start trusting in God, that you have the ability to change. To reach the first point, you have to establish a relationship in the first place.

So faith is giving up all of your desires?

We have a difference in terminology here.

You keep your desires, but your goals, your wants have to go from being what you want, to what God wants. That's what I mean by turning your desires to God.
Christianity is not about getting rid of your desires, but to direct them to far more useful purposes.