Some Thoughts on Christian Faith

[Kropotkin]

In G-d's defense it can be said that he gave us doctors, civil engineers, etc, who overtime will lessen those things.

I must have missed the passage in the Bible where it states that Adam had a degree in civil enginering and that Eve was a trained nurse. Im my atheist point of view, there's little to indicate that a divine entity in any way gave mankind doctors and engineers.

edit: Nice and insightful thread overall, don't like trolls like me drag you down.

[Elok]

I'm glad to see I was so inspirational. This is going to be a tough one to answer though. First, let's review the Orthodox (i.e., my) perspective on a few things.

St. Paul defines human beings, in one of the epistles, as constisting of three parts united in nature, body, soul, and spirit. Most theologians since have simplified it to body and soul, but the concept remains that we are separate but equal components fused together in one entity, much like the trinity is three distinct persons of a single conjoined essence. We are not great spirits shackled for a time in a primitive body, nor are we energized aggregates of matter. From a Christian standpoint, "human" refers to both physical flesh and the spirit pervading it. This sounds pretty duh, but when arguing about the afterlife it's important to make clear that we are referring not to the freedom of a spirit from physical bondage, but to the reunion of two natural partners in the state they were meant to have.

Note that the body and soul are not in a strict hierarchy of dominion and obedience. Each one influences the other in countless ways; yes, the soul "orders" the body around, but at the same time the soul is tied to some extent to the purely biological function of the brain, and an imbalance of chemicals in the body can thus alter the soul, as in depression. And of course plenty of studies have been done on the effects of mental stress on bodily health, so it's a two-edged sword. What one part does can and will affect the other.

The reason I bring this up is to try to dispel the concept of the soul as a fixed quantity within an inconstant shell. There is a certain nature to our awareness that doesn't change, much as our bodies will never normally grow extra arms or a third lung, but the soul is a dynamic form that changes in response to stimulus throughout life, like frequently-used muscles growing stronger.

The quirk in this gimmick is that human beings are self-aware, which is to say that the soul can to some degree alter its own form because it can understand its own nature. In lesser animals the activity of the mind is almost as automatic as that of the body, but we are shapeshifting souls. This is what most people mean by "free will," though the way it is customarily referred to makes free will sound like a divine Constitutional right rather than an aspect of our nature. This is a long post so TBC.

[Ben Kenobi]

So exactly why are we evil, Ben? If God created us and wishes us well why aren't we less evil than we are?

Buck Birdseed:

God also allows us to decide certain things for ourselves. Like a father allowing his children to make mistakes, he allows us to do so, in the hopes that we might improve.

Secondly, and this is the part that LoTM is hitting at, that there are evil beings who exist in the world, the accuser being one of them.

LoTM:

Perhaps, But is it not possible that letting G-d off the hook too easily is itself a sin.

How do we ever put God on the hook in the first place? Even Job refused to blame God for his sorrows, despite the fact that he was not responsible for them. As for Job's pal, I acknowledge that there may be times when people suffer due to other reasons, but these are not common.

Noah, on being told of the destruction of most of the human race, raised no protest. Is this why Noah was humiliated by his son, while Abraham is honored?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because the bible does not mention Noah's actions does not make it true that he did nothing. I think he had more worries about building a huge ark in the middle of a desert with all his neighbours laughing.

Secondly, why did Abraham barter with God? He knew that there were some righteous people even in Sodom, hence they ought to be preserved. In Noah's case, God told him that there were no other righteous people in the entire world.

It also implies - dare I say it - a relativizing of evil - i may sin, you may sin, but we dont murder millions of people.

Where do I say that evil only equates with murder?

I fail to see where I imply anything of the sort. All have sinned and fallen short.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kropotkin

I must have missed the passage in the Bible where it states that Adam had a degree in civil enginering and that Eve was a trained nurse. Im my atheist point of view, there's little to indicate that a divine entity in any way gave mankind doctors and engineers.

Maimonides, perhaps the greatest Jewish philosopher and commentator of all time, said it (in a different context) "G-d also created physicians" The tradition attributes lots of things later than Adam and Eve to G-d.

Time for a joke:

A very pious man lives alone in a house. Heavy rains start, and floods are predicted. The police come by in a car, and ask him to evacuate. He says "no, Im so pious, so good, god will surely rescue me"

The water reaches several feet, and he goes to the second floor. Emergency teams come by in a boat, and offer to take him. He says "no, i pray so much and love god so much, surely god will save me"

The water reaches higher, and the man goes to the roof. A helicopter comes by and offers to lower a rope. "no, im such a righteous man, god will send me a miracle"

The water keeps rising and the man drowns.

He goes to heaven and, angry asks god "why didnt you save me?"
To which god responds "First I sent a car, then i sent a boat, then i sent a helicopter - what more did you want?"

[Kropotkin]

Heard the joke before. It's quite funny. Still, that something exists (for example doctors or cars) doesn't mean god created them. If god created everything, he created everything, and then there's no point in pointing it out.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Buck Birdseed:

God also allows us to decide certain things for ourselves. Like a father allowing his children to make mistakes, he allows us to do so, in the hopes that we might improve.

Secondly, and this is the part that LoTM is hitting at, that there are evil beings who exist in the world, the accuser being one of them.

LoTM:



How do we ever put God on the hook in the first place?

"Shall not the judge of the earth do justly?"

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because the bible does not mention Noah's actions does not make it true that he did nothing. I think he had more worries about building a huge ark in the middle of a desert with all his neighbours laughing.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence


I think we may have a here a different civilizational perspective on the bible - absence of evidence - absence of what we would expect - is the starting point for discussion. That is midrash. Now midrash does not present one point of view as correct - it presents alternative ways of looking at the text. Was Noah too busy? Maybe. Was he negligent? Maybe.

Jewish commentators see this in the context of the statement that "noah was righteous in his generation" What does this mean? some read it that he was righteous EVEN in his generation - he was a man who rose above his times. Others read it that he was righteous ONLY by the standards of his generation - compared to Abraham, he would not be considered righteous. Now there are other reasons we might consider him less than supremely righteous - but not protesting deaths could surely have been one of them.
[/QUOTE]

Secondly, why did Abraham barter with God? He knew that there were some righteous people even in Sodom, hence they ought to be preserved. In Noah's case, God told him that there were no other righteous people in the entire world.

Lot was the only righteous man, and IIRC Abraham already knew that Lot would be saved. Hence he certainly did NOT know that there were others, since there werent. He protested based on the possibility that there might have been others. Did Noah know for certain that there were no others deserving of being saved? Maybe, maybe not. And lets go from Noah back to our modern instance. In any particular case, do WE know that all destroyed were evil? On the contrary we have every reason to believe that there were people destroyed far more righteous than Lot. Does this not oblige is to take issue with G-d in some matter? To at least not sit satisfied with rationalizations?

Where do I say that evil only equates with murder?

I fail to see where I imply anything of the sort. All have sinned and fallen short.

But how does this respond to the holocaust. all have sinned. You said that we should look to the source of evil in ourselves. I read that as more or less - dont demand G-d solve poverty, when you give only a tiny bit of charity. Or something on those lines. NOT no human being is perfect, therefore this explains the holocaust. The evil in the heart of the ordinary human being does not explain the horrors of the last century. All have sinned, but not all sins are the same. Surely Abraham did not expect any perfect people in Sodom? Surely Lot was not perfect? Was even Abraham perfect? Yet he expected that G-d would save people. Perfection was NOT the level required for a just G-d to save people.

what we are left with is G-ds anwer to Job - where were you when I created heaven and earth - in otherwords its NOT justified (by G-d) its a mystery. Period. Dont ask. The ultimate non-answer.

I realize full well that there are plenty of prooftexts in the bible leading the other way, and elements in both our traditions that do so. I am not stating (at least no here) that evil, or any particular manifestation of that, is a proof of G-ds non-existence or non-benevelonce, as a geometric proof. I am saying that to just say that theology handles it is not enough - its something that requires we STRUGGLE, and that G-d expects and even wants that struggle.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Does this interpretation predate various persecutions of Jews?

what counts as a persecution?

IIUC its from midrash, collections of essentially sermons, storys legends, and informal commentaries dating from roughly 100 AD (or CE) to roughly 1000 AD. Thats definitely after two destructions of the temple, the persecution in Persia described in Esther, and various persecutions under Rome.

It certainly gains additional poinancy today, and i read it recently in a book by Elie Wiesel, who certainly had modern events in mind.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Heard the joke before. It's quite funny. Still, that something exists (for example doctors or cars) doesn't mean god created them. If god created everything, he created everything, and then there's no point in pointing it out.

Rambam pointed it out, IIRC, in a discussion of whether turning down medical care constituted suicide under Jewish law. He (who happened to be a physician) argued that a death resulting from the denial of medical care cannot be considered a "natural" death, an act of G-d, since G-d also created physicians.

It has potentially larger implications however.

[cinch]

The way I see it:

It seems that people like to set up Reason and Faith as antagonists... Religion vs. Science. I don't think that's wise.

The key to "religion", by my estimation, is the eternal life of matter. The matter and energy that abide within and without us will never be created nor destroyed, and the realisation of that, I think, is the embodiment of eternal life.

Someone (I think it was Giant Squid) had a post a while back about Jesus' "The Kingdom of God is within you" statement... Heaven is a state to aspire to... A state where you realise that everything and everyone were once One, and may indeed become One again, at some point.

Of course, this all ties in to science & theories about the origin of the universe... So I think, my favourite way to go about this whole 'faith' business is to treat science and mysticism as partners, instead of enemies. Working toward the convergence of the two, I think, is the goal.

But that's just me.

As for why I don't buy in to Yawae:
1. A being who is outside of the constraints of time should not change over time.
2. Jesus-worship.
3. I buy into the Campbellian ideas regarding deities. The Universal Duality, and all that. Yawae'n'friends are just portrayed and exalted in such simple terms, it'd be almost insulting to a real deity.

Also:

I actually do buy into the "good deeds" argument... I think good deeds and peace of mind are all we have. They are the embodiment of "faith" (in humankind, in the Universe); paying lip-service to an unseen being is the cheap way out.

(Again, no offence; it might just be me. )

[Ben Kenobi]

LotM:

Lot was the only righteous man, and IIRC Abraham already knew that Lot would be saved.

Any objections to me quoting the NIV?

Genesis 19:12-3

The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place.


Now, let's look at the end of the bargain:

Genesis 18:32-3

Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"

He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.


Now, we know that Lot had two daughters, both of whom had husbands, the sons of law of Lot. Adding Lot and his wife, we have at least 6 righteous people that Abraham knew about.

This is the whole reason why God shuttles these people out, so that the righteous will not be judged along with the wicked. Interestingly enough, some of whom Abraham would have wanted to save did not escape, through their lack of faith in God.

Gen 19:14

So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.


In the end we see that three are saved, Lot and his two daughters.


The NIV renders your quote of Gen 18:25 as:

"Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

God expressly tells Abraham that he will destroy these people in Sodom and Gomorrah. Now, I have to ask what causes you attribute these actions to God?

And lets go from Noah back to our modern instance. In any particular case, do WE know that all destroyed were evil?

Do we know that God is responsible?

All have sinned, but not all sins are the same.

Funny thing about this is that this is the wisdom of men, not of God. From God's perspective a murderer is no different from the other sins WRT to salvation.

Does this not oblige is to take issue with G-d in some matter?

Read the whole section of Genesis 18, look at how Abraham addresses God as dust speaking up for other dust!

I read that as more or less - dont demand G-d solve poverty, when you give only a tiny bit of charity. Or something on those lines. NOT no human being is perfect, therefore this explains the holocaust. The evil in the heart of the ordinary human being does not explain the horrors of the last century.

You are right that this is only a partial explanation. Why did this evil manifest itself so spectacularly in the Holocaust? To this I don't know. All I can say is that it originates with the evil present in every man.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
LotM:



Any objections to me quoting the NIV?

Genesis 19:12-3

The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place.


Now, let's look at the end of the bargain:

Genesis 18:32-3

Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"

He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.


Now, we know that Lot had two daughters, both of whom had husbands, the sons of law of Lot. Adding Lot and his wife, we have at least 6 righteous people that Abraham knew about.

This is the whole reason why God shuttles these people out, so that the righteous will not be judged along with the wicked. Interestingly enough, some of whom Abraham would have wanted to save did not escape, through their lack of faith in God.

Gen 19:14

So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.


In the end we see that three are saved, Lot and his two daughters.


The NIV renders your quote of Gen 18:25 as:

"Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

God expressly tells Abraham that he will destroy these people in Sodom and Gomorrah. Now, I have to ask what causes you attribute these actions to God?



Do we know that God is responsible?



Funny thing about this is that this is the wisdom of men, not of God. From God's perspective a murderer is no different from the other sins WRT to salvation.



Read the whole section of Genesis 18, look at how Abraham addresses God as dust speaking up for other dust!



You are right that this is only a partial explanation. Why did this evil manifest itself so spectacularly in the Holocaust? To this I don't know. All I can say is that it originates with the evil present in every man.

1.maybe its a cultural thing - when i hear Abraham saying dont be angry, BUT - i dont hear quite the same degree of humility you do - I hear a man whos devoted his life to G-d, has left home for Him, and has a real problem with what G-d is doing.

2. Re all sins being equal - ISTR different punishments called for for different sins. And when the prophets chastise the people, its for BIG sins. The notion that all sins are equal seems to be a notion that arises with St. Paul, and is central to his view that all are guilty and so salvation can only be reached through faith. I dont think its there in the Hebrew scriptures (though i dont doubt that after 2000 years of looking somebody's found somethings they can twist into a proof text). I also note that the implications of this in a discussion of a the holocaust is troubling - was some Jewish or Catholic or Roma child, who kept faith intently, acted justly, and repented sincerely (each in their own way) for any sin, a sinner equal to Hitler or Himmler? Surely thats not what Paul (nee Saul) meant.

3. Is G-d responsible for 20th century -well certainly not in the sense of having willed it. The argument is that he allowed it. There are numerous examples in the Hebrew scripture where somebody sinned, and G-d intervened in some fashion to alter the course of history and avert the consequences. To explain the lack of intervention in the 20th century one must have a theory of why miracles ceased to occur and one must be able to make this theory stand up to the unique circumstances of the holocaust (perhaps more difficult for Judaism than for Christianity, since the physical survival of Jewish people is important to Judaism, while for Christianity the issues are different (Fackenheim I seem to recall discusses the issue of what would have happened to Jesus - racially a Jew - had he been in Europe during the holocaust, but i dont remember the essence of the discussion)

[Ben Kenobi]

LotM:

1. Same passage, I see a very humble approach from Abraham, that he speaks very respectfully to God.

2.
Re all sins being equal - ISTR different punishments called for for different sins.

Yep. Don't see us sorting out this problem since it does come from Paul, who I don't believe is authoritative for Jewish people.

3.

There are numerous examples in the Hebrew scripture where somebody sinned, and G-d intervened in some fashion to alter the course of history and avert the consequences. To explain the lack of intervention in the 20th century one must have a theory of why miracles ceased to occur and one must be able to make this theory stand up to the unique circumstances of the holocaust.

One could make the argument that God did intervene to dismantle the Nazi regime, and in establishing Israel.

I'm surprised that there are not more Jews who are thankful of their survival. Despite what the Nazis did, there are still Jews alive in the world.

Part of the problem with attributing action, or lack of action is in the joke posted in this thread. God's actions may not necessarily be clear to us when they are happening.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
LotM:

1. Same passage, I see a very humble approach from Abraham, that he speaks very respectfully to God.

2.
Re all sins being equal - ISTR different punishments called for for different sins.

Yep. Don't see us sorting out this problem since it does come from Paul, who I don't believe is authoritative for Jewish people.

3.


One could make the argument that God did intervene to dismantle the Nazi regime, and in establishing Israel.

I'm surprised that there are not more Jews who are thankful of their survival. Despite what the Nazis did, there are still Jews alive in the world.

Part of the problem with attributing action, or lack of action is in the joke posted in this thread. God's actions may not necessarily be clear to us when they are happening.

1 and 2 - yeah i think youre right, we aint gonna sort these out here.

3. Well yeah, there is a not inconsiderable number of Jews who say that well we got the miracle of Israel, and most Jews survived.

Re Israel - i think you are aware of how intense a Zionist i am - but i would agree with, I think it was Leon Weiseltier, if G-d offered us a deal, we could go back to the status quo of 1939, no state and squabbling with the brits and arabs to allow jewish immigration to Palestine, and in return we got the 6 million back, alive and in good health, Id take the deal in a heartbeat.

And two thirds were saved - only one third were killed (not even to go into the manner of their deaths, or the suffering of the survivors which goes on to this day - yes i have relations who have physical ailments that originated then) and the most pious and spiritual third at that - the heartland of Jewish learning gone, yeshivas gone, 1000 year old communities gone. Families eliminated. Well I dont fault Churchill and FDR - from the king of kings, blessed be he, it might not be unreasonable to expect a little more, no?

[Ben Kenobi]

LotM:

Considering the fact that the Allies knew nothing about the scale of the holocaust before going to war with the Nazis, things could have gone much worse.

In fact, the British very nearly pulled out of the war before the Americans jumped in. If that had happened, World war 2 would have been much more protracted.

Id take the deal in a heartbeat.

Sadly we can't turn the clock.

[Elok]

Sorry for the delay, my dad was waiting for a call so he booted me off the net. I can't remember where exactly I was going with the argument either, but basically, Boshko came surprisingly close to our theology with his first post way back there, but didn't follow all the implications of the ideas through. The truth of it is, the moths that don't follow the "flame" are in hell enough, no punishment required, without any voluntary punishment. Interestingly, I don't believe the Bible ever refers to Hell as a place of deliberate torture as such. It's a lake of fire, there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but the assumption of angels with whips, Tantalus constantly longing for food, or of other contrived agonies is never mentioned. It's always just a place that happens to really, really suck. I think that's significant.

Our ballpark seventy years on earth are given us as time to choose what we will become; how we will direct the consciousness we have been given, to good or evil. We don't know exactly what happens afterwards, naturally, but the parable of the sheep and the goats is probably pretty accurate. The vicious and abusive members of the human herd will be isolated from the good ones to keep their evil from spoiling things all over again. Their isolation is by its very nature hell, because they are excluded from paradise, but there is no other way because they have chosen freely to revolt against God and everything He offers. God cannot take their will away from them because without their will there is no "them" left. A human without free will is less than fully human. More like a biological machine. At the same time, to allow them into heaven would be to let the snake back into Eden, which is obviously no good; then you'd have all humanity miserable. Short of blasting them out of existence entirely (and I admit I honestly can't guess why God wouldn't), the only option is to let them sit and ruin their lives forever.

BTW, note that "Basking in God's presence forever" might not be the same as you think. In the Book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem is an absolutely enormous city capable of holding something like a few trillion people comfortably. There isn't a single church in the New Jerusalem, oddly enough. Worship/prayer is something we do in our present life to try to bring our focus back on God. The resurrected are already there 24/7, so they worship God in all things they do without conscious effort. Does Eden sound bad to you?