Some Thoughts on Christian Faith

[Az]

I don't think God is a logical impossibility. I do, however, think that the idea of God (with the attributes normally ascribed to Him by the Judeo-Christian tradition, specifically omniscience, omnipotence, creation and infinate benevolence) is incompatible with our world.

Of course, if you change the definition of god, stuff will change.

[Ben Kenobi]

is incompatible with our world.

Well, then perhaps God does not live in our world, since the world cannot possibly contain him.

Generally God's actions are done to the world, not from the world.

[Theben]

I thot the "eternity in torment" would end Judgement Day: The believers would be saved and called into Heaven, and the damned 'damned', and that Hell, Satan, etc. would be annilated, so that only Heaven would remain.

[Jon Miller]

that is basically what I beleive

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

The believers would be saved and called into Heaven, and the damned 'damned', and that Hell, Satan, etc. would be annilated, so that only Heaven would remain.

What do you make of Matthew 25:37-46 ?

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Well, then perhaps God does not live in our world, since the world cannot possibly contain him.

Generally God's actions are done to the world, not from the world.

But he's generally taken to be omniscinet/omnipotent in this world, to have created it and to be infinately benevolent towards its inhabitants, right?

My compaints are not about the physical nature of god but of his supposed actions.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel

I don't think God is a logical impossibility. I do, however, think that the idea of God (with the attributes normally ascribed to Him by the Judeo-Christian tradition, specifically omniscience, omnipotence, creation and infinate benevolence) is incompatible with our world.

Of course, if you change the definition of god, stuff will change.

Doesnt necessarily mean you shouldnt change the definition. thats one way a tradition stays alive. (its also far from clear to me that Judaism has always maintained the above list of "orthodox" attributes. In particular the mystical tradition discusses G-d in ways that are hard to reconcile with those attributes, unless one radically redefines the attributes)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed


But he's generally taken to be omniscinet/omnipotent in this world, to have created it and to be infinately benevolent towards its inhabitants, right?

My compaints are not about the physical nature of god but of his supposed actions.

Or inactions as the case may be. I would tend to agree, as a child of the 20th century, that the problem of theodicy (G-d and evil) is more challenging than any logical issues relating to physical existence.

[Ben Kenobi]

My compaints are not about the physical nature of god but of his supposed actions.

So what actions do you attribute to God that you feel ought not to have happened?

LoTM:

As for evil, we ought to look straight at ourselves as the source.

[Buck Birdseed]

So exactly why are we evil, Ben? If God created us and wishes us well why aren't we less evil than we are?

Also, what about natural evil? Why does God cause (or allow the causation of) miscarriages, natural disasters, sinking ferries etc.?

[Japher]

Pesonally, I believe god does not interfere but leaves man to their own devices within their lives and judges when it's over. I think god loves mankind, and not so much each man individually to a point that he would intervene and stop a miscarriage, natural disaster, etc.

He judges at the end.

Then, since god loves manking, he would like to see us evolve into stronger more peaceful beings. Yet, in order to do so we must face the pains of the evil in the world to see and encourage the good within it.

Earthquakes can take lives, but they also make mountains from which live can spring.

Sinking Fairies can cause death, but make for good coral grounds from which new life can grow.

Miscarriages... you got me there nothing good of that from what I can see. Yet, that doesn't mean it's there as I don't know everything. Perhaps the kid would of been damian or some demon spawn.

Why god? Why me!!!?

God helps those who helps themselves... (<-- greedy republican tag line)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


So what actions do you attribute to God that you feel ought not to have happened?

LoTM:

As for evil, we ought to look straight at ourselves as the source.

I would agree that when someone who is not themselves trying to fix the world, complains about G-d, it rings rather hollow. But I dont think the fallibility of human beings is a complete escape from the problem. I am a sinner, and i know it, and ask for forgiveness. But that does not answer the problem of the genuine innocents. It sounds like Job's pal, who tells him to search his own soul (and turns out to be wrong, BTW)

It also implies - dare I say it - a relativizing of evil - i may sin, you may sin, but we dont murder millions of people. The folks who did wouldnt likely have listened to you or me, whatever we had done. The bible speaks to us of G-d softening hardened hearts - why, my brothers' and sisters' blood cries out, didnt He soften the most hardened hearts in 1943? Im not saying there arent answers, but they are tremendously difficult ones, and Im not sure we'll recognize our view of G-d when we're done.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
So exactly why are we evil, Ben? If God created us and wishes us well why aren't we less evil than we are?

Also, what about natural evil? Why does God cause (or allow the causation of) miscarriages, natural disasters, sinking ferries etc.?

I can deal with the miscarriages, natural disasters, etc easier than the holocaust. In G-d's defense it can be said that he gave us doctors, civil engineers, etc, who overtime will lessen those things. It doesnt help the person who actually suffers, but it represents the playing out of G-ds mercy over time. And it can be argued that it was Necessary for man to do those things, - if G-d had solved those problems from the get go, man couldnt have contributed to creation, which was necessary.

That is why tragedies that go "against the grain" of history are more troubling.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


So what actions do you attribute to God that you feel ought not to have happened?

LoTM:

As for evil, we ought to look straight at ourselves as the source.

Perhaps, But is it not possible that letting G-d off the hook too easily is itself a sin.

Note that Noah is contrasted unfavourably with Abraham in Jewish tradition - for many reasons, but one stands out. When G-d stated his intention to destroy Sodom, Abraham challenged him. "Should not the judge of the earth do justice?" Though it turned out that there were no righteous men other than Lot in Sodom, G-d patiently listened to Abraham. Noah, on being told of the destruction of most of the human race, raised no protest. Is this why Noah was humiliated by his son, while Abraham is honored?

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Note that Noah is contrasted unfavourably with Abraham in Jewish tradition - for many reasons, but one stands out. When G-d stated his intention to destroy Sodom, Abraham challenged him. .... Noah, on being told of the destruction of most of the human race, raised no protest.

Does this interpretation predate various persecutions of Jews?