Does God Exist?

[Sava]

JAPHER: "Purgatory"

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Pekka
and I don't take bible literally. But I don't think every word is a lie either.
And I accept that God is different that I think or what I've been told.

That's fine...it's sane. But that's faith, not proof or evidence. When someone questions my lack of belief, and I say I see no evidence for a god, getting a response that relies on faith rather than quantifiable evidence doesn't move me in the slightest. There are a thousand different religious beliefs that call for faith...which one is right above all others?

I'm not trying to convert anyone to atheism--I frankly don't care what anyone's religious beliefs are, so long as those beliefs aren't going to be used to deprive me of my rights, liberties and well-being or to discriminate against me for not believing.

[reds4ever]

What did I tell you Dino? Page 4 and counting.......;O)

[Japher]

Sava: that is what I said, plageratory

[Pekka]

Boris, well then we don't have anything left to argue anymore. I earlier said too, that I don't always find it interesting to debate this issue with atheist, since it always comes down to 'it's a matter of faith' and 'lack of evidence keeps me wondering, no proof' . And it came to this.. and that's the point where I see no reason to argue because it won't change anyones minds and sometimes people get p.o.'d too at the ed.

I think you're reasonable, and I don't think religion should be used so that we'd start limiting our rights and liberties, and what they are now.

[Sava]

Japher

[LDiCesare]

Does God exist?

...

Yes I do.

...

(sorry, couldn't resist).

[Soul Survivor]

everything is in doubt, even nothing is in doubt

i simply choose to believe in whatever makes life more convenient...... that the people around me exist, that the things around me exist and that god exists

i guess you could call me agnostic

[Robert]

Originally posted by Sava
Yup... unfortunately for you, my opinion is based upon fact and common sense, rather than fundamentalism...

It's cool that your opinion is based on facts,
can you tell me again what facts exactly?

[Robert]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


No, it doesn't. If you take an empiric look at the world, rather than focusing on your narrow personal experience, you'll note that there are a huge number of religious beliefs across the world, not to mention a lack of it. Were you to assess the life qualities of all these people, it would show that religious belief has little to no effect on how people live in their respective areas. An atheist in NYC is likely to live a similar life to a Christian in NYC, as an atheist in Texas is likely to live a similar life to a Christian in Texas (not counting, of course, facing discrimination from other humans). There is no evidence of any divine intervention or effect on the lives of adherents vs. non-adherents, nor of adherents of one faith vs. adherents of another. There is a lot of emotional speculation, but it's just that--speculation.

There's a huge band between christians all over the world. I traveled to Central Africa, the culture was completely different, but I felt very close to the christians overthere.

We believed the same thing, the same thing was important to us.

Faith is above cultural borders.
Of course every believer puts it's believe in his or her cultural way of living. But I think that's a big
it doesn't bring a cultural way to live.

Other religions come with one way to live.
Christianity doesn't, it gives you one goal to reach, one God to love. And everybody can do it the way he wants.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Which god is going to punish me for not believing in him? Yahweh, Allah, Osiris, Zeus, Vishnu? I can't worship them all! There are only so many hours in the day...

God will not 'punish' you for not believing in Him.
It's rather your choise.

Do you want to live with God for eternity, or without Him?

If you choise to live without Him (and thus without all the good He gives) you can't blame Him for that.

[Robert]

Boris: Well, just look at the claims religiousicts have regarding what their particular God does for them, and match them to people of different/no religions. If there is no real difference between what happens to group A and group B, despite different religious beliefs, then there's no evidence that belief in a particular God changes one's existence in the world.

It doesn't matter what believe or what God we believe in.

It matters if we believe the truth.
The truth is that we, men, screw it up and are not capable to live in harmony with each other and with the world God has created.
We are not capable, no religion will make us capable, neither will any way of living make us better people.

That's something I'm sure about, even beyond any discussion about which God is real.
Even if there would be no God, that would still be true.
We are incapable to live in harmony.

We simple can't.
Even the most delighted book can't change us and improve us.

And I think after one admits this,
you can say to whatever you think God is named:
"I'm sorry for who I am and what I have done, can you please forgive me and take my blame away"

[Robert]

Boris: At any rate, yes, Christians are just as likely to divorce as Atheists. A recent study conducted by a Christian group (attempting to prove Christians were morally superior, btw), inadvertendly proved the opposite, in that Christians have a little higher divorce rate than atheists.

The Bible doesn't claim that christians are better people.
It claims that christians are as sinfull as any other person.

In fact it claims that we are all sinners.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by CyberShy
There's a huge band between christians all over the world. I traveled to Central Africa, the culture was completely different, but I felt very close to the christians overthere.

"There is a lot of emotional speculation, but it's just that--speculation."

We believed the same thing, the same thing was important to us.

That's great, but not relevant. Considering that Irish Protestants and Catholics don't see things this way, I don't think such feelings are universal among Christians.

Faith is above cultural borders.
Of course every believer puts it's believe in his or her cultural way of living. But I think that's a big
it doesn't bring a cultural way to live.

How one lives in ones faith is very much a product of one's culture. South American Catholics live in their faith in a very different way than American Catholics do, often holding very divergent cultural and political values. Even within the U.S, Southern Baptists live a different cultural life than Northeast Presbyterians.

Other religions come with one way to live.
Christianity doesn't, it gives you one goal to reach, one God to love. And everybody can do it the way he wants.

This is nonsense. I can introduce you to several Muslim families I know whose existence is culturally far removed from those living in Iran, Pakistan or Indonesia. In fact, their cultural existence is pretty similar to middle-class Americans of any other religious stripe. I also know a large number of Hindus for whom this is the same. This statement is a baseless assertion that just shows your own cultural bias.

[Ben Kenobi]

Boris:

Now we are getting somewhere.

And many do not feel they have such a void and do not seek to fill it.

The evidence seems contrary, most people do have some spiritual void in their life, and they try a variety of ways to fill the spiritual void.

I'm going to quote Wernazuma's response as evidence that some 'atheists' seek a god-substitute to fill the void. You have to consider this when you determine whether many feel they have a void or not.

"both these phenomena weren't atheist, because "reason" and "vorsehung" were higher powers, i.e. similar to a God concept."

And people who seek it in different ways don't lead vastly different lives or have different things happen to them that fall along lines of religious belief.

Okay, here's the point I'm still getting at, what qualifies as evidence of divine intervention? Individual testimonies?

If we could look at people and say "Ok, it seems Christians in X have far less uncontrollable bad things happen to them than Atheists in X, ergo Christians must be on to something,"

Well, that assumes that the only force that exists must be God. Bad things can and do happen to Christians, sometimes even because they are Christians. Do you think a martyr gets control over when she gets her head lopped off? Hardly. So how do we determine the causes of suffering?

Well, just look at the claims religiousicts have regarding what their particular God does for them, and match them to people of different/no religions.

Do non-religious people claim divine intervention? How can the ones without a religion attribute anything to God?

Secondly,

If there is no real difference between what happens to group A and group B, despite different religious beliefs, then there's no evidence that belief in a particular God changes one's existence in the world.

What will we be measuring, perceptions or reality? Will we use how people perceive things have happened to them, or will we record their experiences?

Again, even if bad things happen to a Christian, that does not make God responsible for these bad things. God is able to stop them, but God also allows people to make their own mistakes. Sometimes this means that believers will be tested and have to endure suffering.

Pretty easy. Divine intervention would be something wherein the hand of a deity was the only possible explanation for an occurence.

So can attributing things to chance or luck also work as 'alternative' explanations?

And as regards to this debate, it would have to be something specifically occuring in people of one particular faith, but not any other. For instance, claiming "God healed my cancer" as being evidence of divine intervention is faulty, as one could also find people of different faiths or no faith who also went into remission. There would then be no proof their cancer went away through divine means instead of natural ones.

Generally, praying for God to have your cancer healed, and having God heal your cancer plays a role in attributing the act to God. In my own life, I've had some of my prayers answered.