Does God Exist?

[Ben Kenobi]

As do I.

What do I believe?

I believe in the living God, the God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and who is still God today.

Boris:

No, it doesn't. If you take an empiric look at the world, rather than focusing on your narrow personal experience, you'll note that there are a huge number of religious beliefs across the world, not to mention a lack of it.

So what does this mean? People have a spiritual void in their lives,and they seek different ways of filling that void.

Were you to assess the life qualities of all these people, it would show that religious belief has little to no effect on how people live in their respective areas.

'life qualities' seems very vague, and not an empirical measure. How does one weigh an improved life quality?

An atheist in NYC is likely to live a similar life to a Christian in NYC, as an atheist in Texas is likely to live a similar life to a Christian in Texas

Is a Christian as likely to sleep with a member of the same sex as an atheist? Is a christian as likely to divorce as an atheist? These are just two that I put up for you to demonstrate no difference between Christians and between atheists.

Secondly, those who call themselves Christians, yet do not change their behavior, does this call into question the existence of God, or the sinfulness of man? I believe that such 'Christians' have a problem with the latter, rather than the former.

There is no evidence of any divine intervention or effect on the lives of adherents vs. non-adherents, nor of adherents of one faith vs. adherents of another. There is a lot of emotional speculation, but it's just that--speculation.

Before I can answer the question, I need to know what qualifies as 'evidence' of divine intervention in the world. What are your criteria, and your justification for these criteria?

[SlowwHand]

If you're saved, that's the last time you have to worry.

I had recent concerns on something (Boris, I spoke briefly to you on this) and a minister pointed out that if God spent all his time resaving people every time they screwed up, he'd have time for nothing else.

[Pekka]

Sava, well I don't know how it is there.. in here there's no forcing.. I guess we lack of fundies then.
Sure, I'd be pissed if I was questioned all the time and someone tried to tell me my beliefs are rubbish and convert me to OTHER religion. Why? Because I don't have time for that, and frankly I don't care, I got mine already.

edit: I mean it would be OK if I had to debate few times about the issue, but then again it's not possible, I'd had to debate 100 a day if I answered the challenge.
There's no point, I don't go changing my beliefs every other week. I stick with the winning horse!

And these debates always comes down the same points, and those who believe say 'well it's a matter of faith', and atheists sticks with 'if there's no proof, God can not exist'. So what's the point of arguing about it any further? And because that's the case most of the times, what's the point even starting arguing.

You either believe, or you don't.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Pekka
Sava, well I don't know how it is there.. in here there's no forcing.. I guess we lack of fundies then.
Sure, I'd be pissed if I was questioned all the time and someone tried to tell me my beliefs are rubbish and convert me to OTHER religion. Why? Because I don't have time for that, and frankly I don't care, I got mine already.

edit: I mean it would be OK if I had to debate few times about the issue, but then again it's not possible, I'd had to debate 100 a day if I answered the challenge.
There's no point, I don't go changing my beliefs every other week. I stick with the winning horse!

And these debates always comes down the same points, and those who believe say 'well it's a matter of faith', and atheists sticks with 'if there's no proof, God can not exist'. So what's the point of arguing about it any further? And because that's the case most of the times, what's the point even starting arguing.

You either believe, or you don't.

Good points. But yes, Finland is different than America.

[Pekka]

Sava, sure.. but we all have internet .

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by obiwan18
So what does this mean? People have a spiritual void in their lives,and they seek different ways of filling that void.

And many do not feel they have such a void and do not seek to fill it. And people who seek it in different ways don't lead vastly different lives or have different things happen to them that fall along lines of religious belief. If we could look at people and say "Ok, it seems Christians in X have far less uncontrollable bad things happen to them than Atheists in X, ergo Christians must be on to something," that would be an observational support of a certain religious doctrine.

'life qualities' seems very vague, and not an empirical measure. How does one weigh an improved life quality?

Well, just look at the claims religiousicts have regarding what their particular God does for them, and match them to people of different/no religions. If there is no real difference between what happens to group A and group B, despite different religious beliefs, then there's no evidence that belief in a particular God changes one's existence in the world.

s a Christian as likely to sleep with a member of the same sex as an atheist?

Most homosexuals are religious, and most of those are Christians. You may not consider them "real" Christians, but they certainly believe they are such. This isn't the point, however, as we're not talking about behavorial differences (which are certainly going to be there), but rather uncontrollable "Acts of God." Are Christians as likely as anyone else to get cancer?

Is a christian as likely to divorce as an atheist? These are just two that I put up for you to demonstrate no difference between Christians and between atheists.

Again, you're completely misunderstanding. I'm not talking about behavioral differences, but things out of the control of people. Things that would supposedly be wrought by "divine intervention."

At any rate, yes, Christians are just as likely to divorce as Atheists. A recent study conducted by a Christian group (attempting to prove Christians were morally superior, btw), inadvertendly proved the opposite, in that Christians have a little higher divorce rate than atheists.

Secondly, those who call themselves Christians, yet do not change their behavior, does this call into question the existence of God, or the sinfulness of man? I believe that such 'Christians' have a problem with the latter, rather than the former.

This is again not the issue, as behavior isn't the issue, it's "Acts of God."

Before I can answer the question, I need to know what qualifies as 'evidence' of divine intervention in the world. What are your criteria, and your justification for these criteria?

Pretty easy. Divine intervention would be something wherein the hand of a deity was the only possible explanation for an occurence. And as regards to this debate, it would have to be something specifically occuring in people of one particular faith, but not any other. For instance, claiming "God healed my cancer" as being evidence of divine intervention is faulty, as one could also find people of different faiths or no faith who also went into remission. There would then be no proof their cancer went away through divine means instead of natural ones.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
If you're saved, that's the last time you have to worry.

I had recent concerns on something (Boris, I spoke briefly to you on this) and a minister pointed out that if God spent all his time resaving people every time they screwed up, he'd have time for nothing else.

That's pretty odd. A Minister believes his Omnipotent God has some sort of limit as to his power? That he is constrained by time? I don't think many Minister's would agree with this.

And I understand what's going on, so don't think that anything said in debate on an issue is meant to be anything other than just that, friendly debate.

[SlowwHand]

I think you're too busy trying to argue.

[Japher]

I can't form a logical sequence of opinions, so:

Sloww (or is it Sloow), I wouldn't worry about Boris too much. My god will take care of him, he is really cool...

God does not interfere with the life of man, though he does work to delay their death...

Also, my god is going to punish the Pope in the afterlife for impersonating a deity and being a flat out hypocrit. I am always amazed at how so many gay ppl are christians, it's such a backwards religion...

I have a good relationship with god, and I don't believe in mass worship or prayer.

My grandfather was a naturalist and he showed me where god was.

Athesists believe in god, they chose to believe he doesn't exist, ergo acknowledging him...

Aye, god exists in the minds of the people, as he was made in our image... Yet, he can manifest himself if people chose to believe. It's a hokey catch-22, but there is no other explination to non-existance.

As a scientist my god is removed from my life. Yet, he is there in an unobtrusive fashion.

My wife is a strong christian, and I am friends with her pastor. He knows what I believe and respects that, but he also believes that I will turn to organized religion one day, and not dwell on my 'pagan' religion as he calls it. I was offended at this, but he is allowed his 'social' god and he allows me mine, so be it, I could care less....

[Sava]

Religion is a human phenomenon.

[Pekka]

Boris, I'll argue that one though. If God saved us all the time, then would we ever learn anything? If God saved us all the time, would we deserve it, if we started the whole mess? Maybe God just makes us to face the consequences, like there are to every action.

Also in many cases, someones screwing up does good to someone else. And even if the person who has to face the music is good God fearing person, something good and valuable can come out of the situation that would have never come if the person didn't have to go through the difficulties.

Also, I remember God promised to save people when they are dead and can join his kindom for afterlife.
I'm not sure if he made any promises for the short waiting period were here on the face of earth?

[SlowwHand]

God will not "take care of him" if he isn't saved.


I believe in a merciful God, but one has to make some effort to meet Him half-way.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Japher
Athesists believe in god, they chose to believe he doesn't exist, ergo acknowledging him...

So if choosing to believe God doesn't exist (btw, that's not what all Atheists believe, most just don't believe God exists) is somehow secretly acknowledging God exists, is choosing to believe the Easter Bunny doesn't exist a secret acknowledgement that it exists?

Bizarre claim...

[DinoDoc]

I think I've finally figured out why these stupid trolls are so popular. They just work too damn well.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think I've finally figured out why these stupid trolls are so popular. They just work too damn well.

Exactly, find a thread with God/Creationist or Evolution in the title and I'll guarantee it runs to at least 4 pages