Does God Exist?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by CyberShy
So do I, and that's why God showed me already.
But if I say that you claim that I'm nuts.

When did I claim such a thing? I suggest you read more carefully, since I explicitley stated I have no problem with people having religious faith in their hearts. Thanks for the strawman, though.

Pretty strange way of reasoning.
First you say I'm an idiot for believing something I won't know until the end, but if I claim I already know I'm an idiot as well.

And when did I say any of these things? I certainly did not, and your accusing me of such is slander. Is this what Christianity teaches you?

In fact I'm just an idiot if I don't believe the same thing you believe. Which is just plain fundamentalistic.
I thought nobody thought that way anymore since the middle ages.

I now have every reason to conclude your spiritual revelations are either lies or hallucinations, since you have just conjured up a fantasy of what I have said. Where did I say any of this? Nowhere. I explicitely stated the contrary. This is pretty shameful of you.

According to the Bible, pi is 3, women should be subserviant to their husbands,

The bible has been written by people.
And of course the cultural environment got it's place in the Bible.

I'm aware of that, I agree, and that is why I believe unwavering acceptance of the Bible and what it says is unwise.

it's okay to massacre women and children

it doesn't teach that.

Oh? Pray tell, how do you explain God ordering the Israelites to slaughter women and children of foreign tribes? He does, and they carry out his orders. If you don't believe those events are true, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that they are in the Bible. If you're going to say such massacres were not okay, then you have to square that with them having been ordered by God, and can he order something which isn't okay?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by obiwan18
it's the claim that any religious doctrine is somehow more proven than another, when such proof is not there.

Yes, that's what I claim...such proof is not there.

If all religions have equal value, and you do not believe Christianity, show me how one can disprove the truth of Islam or Buddhism.

It's not up to me to "disprove" any religious belief, as such disprove isn't possible, under the rules of logic. It is up to those religious groups to prove their claims, and none have offered any empiric evidence for their supernatural claims, which is why I reject all of them equally.

[mrmitchell]

There is no scientific evidence to support God.

However, on the other hand, religion can be a great inspiration to the world. (It can also be a terrible murderer.)

Thus, it can be assumed that even for all the good inspiration religion creates, it is better that it not be around. It creates more than enough fundie dumbasses. It is better that humanity uses its own advancement as an inspiration rather than a fear of a vengeful God, or vain hope that they will be rewarded.

(Did I mention that the scientific evidence is stacked in favor of a God not existing?)

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Of course there is speculation, but remember my speculation was just a response to your speculation.

Great! I'm glad you acknowledge it is nothing more than speculation.

I think you don't understand the problem of North Ireland. It's not a religional conflict. It's a conflict about power, and both groups use their 'religion' against the other group. Like they both use palastinian and israelian flags while none of them are palastinian or israelian.

While politics are certainly a huge part of it, I think your dismissal of the religious aspect is an unfounded dismissal. I've noticed this tendency amongst a lot of religiouscists, to basically claim all religious strife is really about something else. How about the levels of intolerance and hatred of Catholics by evangelical Christians, and vice-versa? You think that's not religously-centered strife?

That's what I say.
The christian faith doesn't push any culture or way of living to it's believers.

Which has nothing to do with any empiric claims of quantitative difference between the cosmic occurances of Christians vs. anyone else. Differences relating to beliefs and behavior aren't what we're talking about here, it's divine intervention vs. cosmic chance. This is all tangental.

It's not. All muslims have to live to their 5 pilars (or whatever it's named)
Indeed, hindus live a very other way, but that believe system isn't centered around a god.

And this is not indicative that they all live culturally alike. Do Jews all live culturally alike? Is Al Franken living the same cultural existence as an orthodox Jew in Brooklyn? Certainly not. This shows some appalling ignorance on your part of how Muslim-American live as opposed to, say, the Taliban. Do you really think their lives are culturally similar? That is unimaginable.

All Christians are expected to live by some basic Christian doctrines--that's what makes them Christian, after all. Why is Muslims doing the same somehow proof it's a monolithic culture? If it were, why are the Sunnis ans Shiites fighting each other?

Read the Bible, read the Koran, read whatever religious scripture there is.
Read what is says about people, about the future (the current time) and see which one is the truth.
Of course your mind must be open to really find the truth.

Nobody will find the truth if (s)he doesn't want one particular truth to be the truth.

Again, this is basing truth on gut feeling and emotional speculation. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. I've read the Bible, it doesn't speak to me in nearly the same way that listening to a Mahler adagio does. I find it patently absurd, personally. I can think of other religious tenets that are far more hopeful about the future, from my perspective (New Age, for example). I don't put any stock in them, because I refuse to accept notions of supernatural powers just because I selfishly may want to believe in them.

I think it would be great if there was a big, loving entity who would give us all lollipops after we die. I just don't see any proof of it.

All of this continues to be a sidestep of the basic point, which is that belief appears to have no cosmic difference in one's life, since the same cosmic events occur to people regardless of what they believe. Ergo belief in a deity will not effect one's life beyond the difference it may make in one's perceptions and attitudes. Since I am quite comfortable with my perceptions and attitudes as they are (despite attempts to slander them), I see no need for belief in a deity at the moment.

[mrmitchell]

The christian faith doesn't push any culture or way of living to it's believers.

Are you so sure about that?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Agathon:

I've already addressed this objection.

More likely you think you have.

Yet Christ resurrected in bodily form, not just the soul. Where do the Platonists argue that the body resurrects along with the soul after death?

No but the whole immaterial soul thing is cribbed. Plato was influenced by Orphism and Pythagoreans. Not all Christians believe in bodily resurrection. Same goes for the impurity of physical desires.

The Hebrews also believed in a spiritual world, well before Plato. So did Plato steal the concept from them?

Plato would not have bothered with a bunch of ignorant, uncivilised guilt-ridden tribesmen. He was influenced by Orphism.

It's not in scripture but it explained some of the facts surrounding Christ's death and resurrection, as well as the events surrounding Pentecost better than any other explanation.

It's cribbed from NP to make it more acceptable. That's why people like Boethius can profess to be Christians even though they are NPs.

Christ predicted the arrival of a 'comforter', or the Holy Spirit, so Christians incorporated the concept of three persons inside one being, God.

The idea of having three as aspects of the same divine reality is cribbed from Platonism (although how early this is is in dispute).

Plato is an excellent philosopher, and many of his ideas are shared by Christianity. However, there are important differences precluding outright plagiarism.

There are important differences. Platonism is a much more plausible theory and has actual arguments for its claims.

[problem_child]

[Rogan Josh]

Hmm... I have no proof that Fez exists. Therefore he doesn't exist! Thank God!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Hmm... I have no proof that Fez exists. Therefore he doesn't exist! Thank God!

Relevant?

I provided photos.. there you got proof.

[Robert]

CyberShy: The jewish people are the only people who got after 2000 years their country back, as being forseen by biblical prophets.

Boris: Patent nonsense. There is no way of knowing that, if God doesn't exist, things wouldn't have turned out just the same.

That's true, but you can't deny that Israel and the jewish people are taking a special position in the world's history and in the current global situation.

So far the Biblical plot is still working, even after 2000 years.

I see that this isn't 100% waterproof evidence, but it is a big plus for the Bible, you can't deny that.

What about the multitude of prophecies that weren't fulfilled or were flat out wrong?

There are no prophecies that have been factually wrong.
There are several prophecies that are according to some opintions wrong, but that's more due to differences in interpertation of the prophecy.

You can't just take one prophecy that appears to have been fulfilled and use that as a kind of evidence,

It's not one. Much prophecies about the reforming of Israel have been fulfilled.
It's been said that the jewish people from the west and the east would return without problem while the jewish people from the north (Russia) and the south (ethiophie) would face big troubles.

It's been said that the Jewish people would be scattered all over the world, and they would be hated and persecuted for ages.

It has been said that the jewish people would be famous for their financial intellect and their big cultural influence.

It's been said that Jerusalem would be a major world problem about which all world-leaders would have opinions and arguments.

It's been said that people from all over the world, jewish and non-jewish would come to Jerusalem to pray.

All those things have been forseen before islam came to be. Before the jews even knew that their faith would be for all people. (they thought it was just for them)

Not to talk about the prophecies about the world being more and more global-centered.
Easy communication and traveling.
Weapons of mass destruction.
Individualism and a self centered way of living.
Fall down of morals. (if you like these morals or not, they have been fallen down for sure)

because unless ALL the prophecies get fulfilled, it proves nothing. It's just speculating about something that could be a result of chance.

Even if all prophecies would be fulfilled, it could be because of a result of change. It'll never be 100% proof. But eventhough it 'll never be, it still can show you that the Bible appears to be right most of the time.

And I disagree with you that there are prophecies that haven't been fulfilled and will never be fulfilled.
We can argue about that, but it'll come down to difference of interpertation.

When did I claim such a thing? I suggest you read more carefully, since I explicitley stated I have no problem with people having religious faith in their hearts. Thanks for the strawman, though.

And when did I say any of these things? I certainly did not, and your accusing me of such is slander. Is this what Christianity teaches you?

now have every reason to conclude your spiritual revelations are either lies or hallucinations, since you have just conjured up a fantasy of what I have said. Where did I say any of this? Nowhere. I explicitely stated the contrary. This is pretty shameful of you.

I'm sorry, I did indeed put you words in your mouth you haven't spoken.
I have to say that the way you have reacted on it (3 times) isn't very friendly either.

But that's your responsibility, mine is that I did indeed not have the right to say that and I'm sorry for doing.

I'm aware of that, I agree, and that is why I believe unwavering acceptance of the Bible and what it says is unwise.

That's the wrong conclusion.
If you're aware of the Biblical cultural / social context you can learn much from it.
You just should not copy the cultural environment to ours. (which is unfortunately done by many christians)

Oh? Pray tell, how do you explain God ordering the Israelites to slaughter women and children of foreign tribes? He does, and they carry out his orders.

1. He doesn't order us to do that.
2. If he does it's a result of the sins of these people. in other words, it's a punishment.
3. it's a complete different cultural environment. If you don't kill your enemies, they'll kill you.
Modern diplomatic rules didn't apply, remember.

You may disagree with that, and in fact it's very hard for me to accept as well.
But it's not as if God is a cruel God because of that.
Besides that, like I said, God doesn't tell us we should behave this way. It's not as if we, christians, should slaughter everybody who disagrees.

The christian faith doesn't know the jihad.
It says we should turn the other cheek. (eventhough I have to admit I never did)

Great! I'm glad you acknowledge it is nothing more than speculation.

All rational arguments we trow in the (a)theist debate are speculation. We can never be sure on facts or something.

That counts for me, but it counts for atheists as well.
Most of the time atheists though think that facts and arguments are on their side.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
(Did I mention that the scientific evidence is stacked in favor of a God not existing?)

I'd be interested in hearing about that since I think you're spouting a load of crap.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I have no idea why these trolls are so popular.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The christian faith doesn't know the jihad.
It says we should turn the other cheek. (eventhough I have to admit I never did)

But Christians do have the Crusades, Inquisitions, Witchhunts, and forced conversions. Christians have rarely (if ever) turned the other cheek. The practice of Christianity has had little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by CyberShy All rational arguments we trow in the (a)theist debate are speculation. We can never be sure on facts or something.

That counts for me, but it counts for atheists as well.
Most of the time atheists though think that facts and arguments are on their side.

Originally posted by DinoDoc

(Did I mention that the scientific evidence is stacked in favor of a God not existing?)

I'd be interested in hearing about that since I think you're spouting a load of crap.

Good news and bad news for you guys.

The good news is that it is probably impossible to prove the non-existence of God. Of course, if I asked you to prove the non-existence of unicorns in the universe you would be ****ed given the sheer size of the universe.

The bad news is that the God which cannot be proven not to exist is a theologically thin God. Nor can you prove there isn't more than one of them. Very boring - the philosopher's God of no positive content! Yeah, that will pack the houses of worship

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by reds4ever

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I have no idea why these trolls are so popular.

I've given up and decided to feed them. I was going to let the physicist of the thread field the science questions anyway if they ended up going over my head.

[reds4ever]

I find physicists usually do, making things excessively complicated seems to be a pre-resquite for the profession