It's all about oppurtunity...

[Al B. Sure!]

oppurtunity may exist but it is hard to find and reach.

the problem with many conservatives is that they assume that oppurtunity is always availible and while it surely does exist, when it comes down to practicality, you can not claim that its simple existance means that anyone can succeed.

for example... sure colleges give out scholarships and all that and if you work real hard, you can go to college and all that... but how much chance of success are you going to have to get these scholarships with a public school education? and let's throw in a broken home and all the psychological and economic hardships that entails... and next thing you know, that oppurtunity for a college education is getting harder and harder to reach...

and let's not forget about the crabs in a barrel mentality and competition. this man trying to go to college on a public education and all that, still got to compete with others and only so many can succeed... add in competition from those (who may be inferior in skills, intelligence, etc.) who were given head-starts for various reasons and again, oppurtunity is fleeting.

frankly, i think this idea, espoused by too many conservatives for my tastes, that oppurtunity is abundant and can be achieved easily in practice is incorrect. it is morally and practically wrong to not allow people to have a solid ground to stand on before reaching for the top. i'm not talking about re-distribution of wealth or none of that bull****... i'm talking about something more basic... a good educaton, at home and at school, a satisfactory and safe life worthy of human beings (not an existance where there's nothing but crime), more jobs, and a greater unity and concern for your fellow human beings to rise economically together.


thanks

[yavoon]

if ur childhood really was a complete disaster then maybe its time to think down the line and work hard so ur kids are not like that.

most upward ascention is slow. 2-3 generations long. not instantaneous. just ask asian immigrants.

[Pekka]

I believe it's possible to succeed no mattere where you come from. With this I mean western countries, it is definitely not always possible if you're born in a very unfortunate place like some African countries, or very poor Asian countries etc.. then your chances are very slim, or almost none.

But here, I believe everyone has a chance. It is easier for some folks, but it is possible for anyone, that's what I believe. If you work enough, hard enough and focus on your goals.. anything can happen. Just have to believe in it.. and use the backdoor sometimes if you are shut down. Some people do get better position to start going for the goals for sure, but I think if you know what you want and go for it 24/7, you'll get it.

My dads family was poor as hell.. 7 kids there in a small house, and dirt poor. My dad still made it, never had higher education but worked very very hard, and he made it nice. I had pretty good place to live, when he didn't. The point is, he didn't get nice things when he was a kid, but he worked hard so I could get them. And I did. I'm determined to make it the same way, coming back with even more than my old man, because that's what he did. And then I can give to my kids too. And I can afford picking up the habit of snorting cocaine instead of having my morning coffee .
Just joking.

Just think positive and drive hard to your dreams, don't let anyone say you otherwise. You don't have to kill them, but don't let anyone get into your way. I know, it's all about the opportunity, but if you look for it hard, and outsmart people, you will get it, I know you will...

[Pekka]

Oh man, sorry I read your post too quickly. All that pep talk for nothing...


.. basically waht you are talking about is socialism, and you don't want to go there. Or if you do, move your butt right here.

[Ben Kenobi]

it is morally and practically wrong to not allow people to have a solid ground to stand on before reaching for the top.

It may be morally wrong, but how can such equality of opportunity be achieved? I doubt that we will ever eliminate all the barriers in society. The most we can try to do is to help those we see in need.

One of the central tenets of political conservatism is that society does not shape man, but that man shapes society. No matter how much we improve society, we will always have the same problems of inequality of wealth.

A good first step would be to make sure that every child has the chance to have three square meals a day, so that they will be ready to learn and not hungry when they go to school.

Another would be to properly fund schools so that they have all the textbooks and supplies necessary to teach the students. The only problem is that these things cost money, and where is the money going to come from? Taxes, otherwise known as wealth redistribution.

Even so, bad stuff happens. Sometimes people just have to play the cards they are dealt, even if it means that they don't get to go on and go to university. There is more to life than getting a higher education.

You've reminded me of a famous quote:

"If a man is called to be a streetsweeper,
he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted,
or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry.

He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts
of heaven and earth will pause to say,
here lived a great streetsweeper who did his job well."
- Martin Luther King -

How much better would we be if everyone did this?

[Cruddy]

For me, opportunity has been rare - but I have sought it, and gotten the odd break.

Maybe the secret isn't to create more opportunity, but to increase the appetite for it? That is, increase motivation...

If you think you don't have opportunities, that luck won't deal you a good hand once in a while - then you don't.

Positive mental attitude is very important too, Herr Speer.

[Ming]

Yeah... life isn't fair. Some people will have an easier road than others. But that doesn't mean that you are stuck with the cards you are dealt. It just means you have to work harder to MAKE your own opportunities.

If you go through life thinking you don't have a chance, and sit on your butt all day doing nothing about it, you won't get the opportunities...

I've seen many people raise themselves out of the depths and turn their lives around, and be very successful. It was hard work for them... and there were no shortcuts... but they did it. If you don't try, then you are screwed... but it's the choice some people make.

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by Ming
If you don't try, then you are screwed... but it's the choice some people make.

While that is all fair and good, what is the justification that the state of being screwed gets inherited?

[Ming]

I never said it was fair... but it is reality. There are things the government can do to help... but welfare as it is now just sucks. The one thing government can't do is make parents responsible. The alternative is for the government to take all children away from people and raise them. And I for one think that's a terrible option.

Yeah... people get born to terrible parents... there isn't really anything you can do about that. But it does still come down to a choice that people have to make.
Do you accept your starting position in life, and then do nothing about it... and suffer your own self pity and not do anything about YOUR life. Or do you work your brains out to make sure you don't end up doing the same thing to your children.

I know people that have made both choices... yeah, it's hard, but it can be done if you are willing to work.
I have no respect for those who just give up... and then end up doing the same thing to their children.

[Dinner]

They can do just as well as anyone else but they'll have to work harder then other people.

[Japher]

the problem with many conservatives is that they assume that oppurtunity is always availible and while it surely does exist, when it comes down to practicality, you can not claim that its simple existance means that anyone can succeed.

No one ever has ever claimed equaility in success...

Equal Opportunity does not mean equal success...

Granted that some kids have greater opportunity due to their social and privilaged up-bringing. Yet, that is inpart realted to their parents... As you mentioned coming from a broken home makes getting what you need difficult enough, not to mention what it is you want. However, this not the fault nor responsibilty of conservatives, liberals, or that of equal opportunity laws and statures. The problem lies in the parents and of the society to which no reform can fix.

So you can continue to place blame where it doesn't belong, but that will accomplish nothing.

I know that you, Speers, have not had it easy, but it seems to me that you have managed to get a handle on the system well enough. I also think that you know what, and who is to blame for all the difficulties that you have had in getting to where are today. Don't turn a blind eye to them because you begin to rant about the wrong things and not see what the true problem is...

The government is not there to give you what you want, they are there to give you what you need.

[Solly]

My parents/grandparents came from backgrounds you couldn't even describe as working class. From Bolton, Salford, Leeds and a small mining town in Wales - it hardly gave them much opportunity. Yet my dad worked his way up in the same building from being a tea-boy at 17 to Chief Accountant 32 years later. My grandma owned her own house.

All those posting on here can probably trace back to some recent ancestors of ours that have made the leap. I might have screwed around with the drinking with my mates last year at uni, but I came out of my second year only inches from a 2:1. A little bit more effort next year and I will have a money-spinning 2:1. A lot less different between a 2:1 and a first, than between a 2:1 and a 2:2.

Think how you'd feel if you're grandchildren can look back and admire your leap and opportunities taken.

Only thing is, it does seem to be getting harder to "socially climb". Whether that is a result of poor policies or just a result of genetics leading to entrenched failings is debatable. Whether it is a fact or just a perception is so too.

[Pekka]

it's all 'bout the money.. it's all 'bout the dumdum dududimdum I don't think it's funny...

[lightblue]

Anyway we need binmen and waitresses. Who is going to that if not the lazy, stupid or unfortunate?

[Solly]

Refuse executives are actually quite well paid.