It's all about oppurtunity...

[The Andy-Man]

Originally posted by lightblue
Anyway we need binmen and waitresses. Who is going to that if not the lazy, stupid or unfortunate?

students

[Al B. Sure!]

yeah yeah thats all good and fine and i know people can be strong and rise up out of whatever horrible situation... but my point is, most do not because they get daunted by the difficulties. exactly why must it be so hard for some people? why not provide them with a good beginning like a good public education and a stable home.

for the sake of practicality, why have there be only a talented tenth lifting themselves by their bootstraps? why not more being helped, just a little, to lift themselves up?

only the humane thing to do

[Japher]

why not provide them with a good beginning like a good public education and a stable home

and how do suggest we do this? humanely?

I would love to see everyone begin with this but you have bad parents, stupid kids, and awful careless teachers everywhere... How do encourage lazy, good for nothing, peices of crap?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Boddington's
Only thing is, it does seem to be getting harder to "socially climb". Whether that is a result of poor policies or just a result of genetics leading to entrenched failings is debatable. Whether it is a fact or just a perception is so too.

None sense it's getting easier to climb then ever before. A college education is open to just about anyone who wants one and who's willing to put even the slightest bit of effort into it. You want to build a nest egg? Buy a home and the truth is getting a morgage loan has never, ever, in the history of man, been easier then now. You could be a blind, one armed chimp and you could still get a loan as long as you have a job.

Speaking of jobs they've never been higher paying nor as plentiful as they've been in the last 10-15 years. Sure, we're going through a slight slump now but this is nothing major and in the long run its nothing more then a bump in the road.

[Ming]

There is not much you can do about bad parents. In the worst cases, the government can step in, but even when they do, the results can be almost as bad on the kids...

So forget your pipe dream, and learn how to deal with reality.

I really feel sorry for the kids in the third world countries that have no real opportunties at all... and are lucky to even make it to see their tenth birthday.... I don't feel sorry for people who have the opportunity, and blow it away because they are too lazy to try. Yeah, life is hard... and even harder for some... but that's no excuse to sit on your butt all day and whine about how unfair life is and not end up doing anything to change it.

Feel sorry for the people that don't have ANY opportunities...

[Kidlicious]

Don't bother saving your money, and only work as hard as you need to. You will waste the one life that you have. Live.

[Dinner]

This thread has started me thinking. Who can a disadvantaged person create opertunities for themself when no one (i.e. parents or what not) is there to give them opertunities. I've made a sort of list of productive things a person can do to improve their life.

1. Complete your high school education. To many poor people drop out of school and then blame capitalism for their lack of success in life. Completing high school is the most basicv meal ticket out there and if you can do it (Honestly, who can't do it?) then you can go on to #2.

2. Complete college. There are lots of state schools for less then $4000 per year and there are JCs for less then $500 per year all of which will get you a college degree and all of which will give you grants and student loans for the total amount. Still not enough money? Newsweek says millions of dollars in scholarships go unclaimed each year simply because no one bothers to enter into the contest so write essays until your fingers fall off and you will probably win a few. Even more is needed? Then ROTC will pay the whole thing if you join the military or you could join reserves or the active duty and you will get a 100% free education. Again this requires work, initiative, and disipline but it can easily be done.

3. While in school apply for every intership you can think of and do it as early as you can. This will give you job experience in your selected field and will give you contacts in your field of choice. This will give you a big head start on #4

4. Get a job. To many poor people just sit around whining about not having a job but don't actually bother to go look for one. It's like they think one will fall out of the sky and just land in their lap. Think of finding a job as being your job. Work eight hours a day monday through friday writting & rewritting your resume, getting interview & resume books from the library, opening the yellow pages and calling every single company in your field (make sure you get the HR Manager's name and send him a resume and cover letter to keep on file even if they aren't hiring), go on hotjobs & monster and all the other internet job sits because if you can't find a job in your area maybe there's one in another city. Lastly, network, network, network. I can't stress how important this part is; talk to everyone you know in the field and make sure they know you're looking for a job, go to the industry social group in your city (look on the internet there are groups for EVERY industry you can think of. Doing this will show you are interested in the field, keep you near others in the field, and you just might run into someone who knows about a job.

5. Now you have a job but you need more money. Ok, maybe your problem is spending to much. Make out a budget and STICK TO THE BUDGET this will help you keep track of what your spending your money on and where you can make savings. I was shocked to see how much I wasted on restaurants and clubbing, but, since making a budget I've found I make plenty of money and can now reach my savings goals just by keeping better track of my expenses.

6. You made a budget but you still can't reach your savings goals? Time to think about doing things which will bring in a little extra money. How about writting a book or a second job (see part about Army reserve) which you can work on the weekends, maybe opening an internet site is more your style? Heck, if you have nothing else to do sell stuff at the swap meet or on ebay. The point is there are lots of opertunities to make extra money but most people are to lazy to actually do them.

7. How do I build long term wealth? First avoid high interest debt like the plague. Once you are debt free build up an emergency fund which will cover everything you need to pay for two month just in case you lose your job or have an unexpected expense you have to pay. Done all that? Have money autodeducted from your pay check into some form of long term savings program. I like 401ks and IRAs but I also put money into my "Buy a house" fund. Speaking of buying a house; that is the surest way to build up serious money that you will ever find. Buy a house and watch your net worth climb as it appriates and you build equity in it.

Anyone else have any other suggestions?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Don't bother saving your money, and only work as hard as you need to. You will waste the one life that you have. Live.

Living a good lquality of life requires money. Saving money and getting interest off of it is the best way to get that money. Do you ever think you communists would be so poor where you had to demand people give you something for free if you just actually worked and saved a bit more? If my grandfather could go from being a Scottish coal miner into being a self-employed, very comfortably well off American then anyone can do it. It does require long term planning, hard work, a willingness to take risks, and a drive to accomplish things when others are just sitting around wondering why they don't have all the money they want.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Oerdin


None sense it's getting easier to climb then ever before. A college education is open to just about anyone who wants one and who's willing to put even the slightest bit of effort into it.

Too bad it doesn't really mean as much anymore. In fact, a degree is becoming a necessity just to get a resume not thrown in the circular file at many workplaces now. A degree has become something of a floor in the way a high school diploma once was - one is now expected to have one.

Nowadays a maters is even starting to become a necessity ...

Speaking of jobs they've never been higher paying nor as plentiful as they've been in the last 10-15 years. Sure, we're going through a slight slump now but this is nothing major and in the long run its nothing more then a bump in the road.

Uh,no. Real wages (i.e. taking inflation into account) have been falling for 4/5 of Americans for going on about 30 years now. And tell the high skilled college educated tech workers who have been laid off for sometime up to two years now about this being a bump in the road.

A few more years and there will be three classes in America: insanely wealthy venture capitalists, a highly paid middle class of lawyers, bankers, and executives, and a giant impoverished class with no upward mobility at all doing whatever job they are lucky enough to have. Won't that be a fun place to live!

And as for this work hard nonsense ...

You can work as hard as you like, but if you have neither (1) access to large amounts of capital, (2) access to an education AND an education will put you ahead in the job market then you are working hard to go nowhere.

Yep, we need waitresses and bin cleaners. But I taught many upper and middle class kids at a certain private university in New Orleans for 3 years - and mixed in among many of those students (taking up valuable educational resources) were a hell of a lot of bin cleaners who got in on the virtue of their parents' money. Makes me wonder how many geniuses with poor parents are stuck cleaning bins.

Ming and Boddingtons seem to be suffering from "i know an orphan who ..." syndrome. That's where you know one orphan who started with nothing and built a great business empire. I'm glad you know some people who made it into the middle or upper class from the lower class. But that tells me nothing of the likelihood of someone being able to do so. For every orphan who starts a business empire, there could be 100 who despite their best efforts go nowhere because they just lacked anything to use as a springboard. Likewise, people like Ming and Boddingtons rely on antecdotal evidence that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. What percentage of do these successful bootstrappers represent?

This of course ignores the fact that the work hard enough theory could only be true if there is an infinite capacity for all of the hard work in society. If there is not, then only a limited number of people can indeed work hard enough and still achieve. Besides, if everybody worked hard enough - wouldn't that leave us without anybody to serve the food and clean the bins?

Of course, this is just more blaming thew victim to cover up the cognitive dissonace the American dream causes. Poor? Must not be working hard enough, so you deserve it! Your unbridled Reaganesque philosophy is an unfounded as it is sickening.

[C0ckney]

so what exactly would you propose to do about it templar?

[Japher]

Oerdin

That is exactly what I have done, and am doing... Though my debt has gone up in the short term due to car troubles, but I am still contributing to my 401k and have 3 mos salary saved, plus 12k in that house fund (though it is tied up in stocks at this time)...

Too your list:
8. Mentors
Somewhere between 1 and 2 or in 2, people should also find a mentor or mentoring group. This can be professor or friend, someone who can give you the encouragement, advice, and brothership one needs to strive over the hurdles they are facing. This should be someone who has your own best interests in mind, and honestly wants to see you succeed for naught of reward or love... One may find multiple mentors/mentoring groups, hey the more the merrier. Campus organizations, clubs, teams, etc. are good places to find these people, or through employment, study groups, or even online communities (not 'poly of course, we're all freakin' nutz... )

Actually, Mentors should be used throughout your whole life, it will give you the strive you need to better yourself constantly.

9. Friends
I live by a theory; You become the company you keep. With this I mean hang-out with, be friends with, the type of people you wish to be like, or which can benefit you from knowing. So many people hang out with a bad crowd, though they may be awesome people, their lack of success or desire for success holds you back and keeps you down. Succeeding will only ostracize you in their eyes, causing them to call you a sell-out, or too good for this crowd... It may be tough to do, but it will help.

10.
Game Plan; develop a game plan and do everything you can do to stick to it. Before college I lived on 5 year plans. After college I set another 5 year plan, now that I have reached the end of that plan I have set a 10 year plan. These plans may take sometime to come with, but once you have done so write it out. Step-by-step, and place it in a place you will see it every day. I keep mine taped to the mirror in the bathroom, and as I brush my teeth I read it through. As you accomplish certain milestones, cross it out... This may seem tacky, but it works. Words are reality, only when they are written down, spoken, and acted on, not just as mere thoughts or intentions. Having a daily reminder of what it is you want, were you are going, and how your are going to get there gives you that drive.

---

Will think of more.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Living a good lquality of life requires money. Saving money and getting interest off of it is the best way to get that money. Do you ever think you communists would be so poor where you had to demand people give you something for free if you just actually worked and saved a bit more? If my grandfather could go from being a Scottish coal miner into being a self-employed, very comfortably well off American then anyone can do it. It does require long term planning, hard work, a willingness to take risks, and a drive to accomplish things when others are just sitting around wondering why they don't have all the money they want.

You are stereotyping communists. I speaking as an individual. I don't want to spend my whole life making sacrifices so that I MIGHT end up with a little more savings, and I don't have to. That doesn't mean that I deserve to be poor. Rich people don't have to make sacrifices to be rich. They just are. The fact that poor people have to work harder and save more to have the chance of ending their life with property makes the system unfair. So your argument that things are fair because of opportunity is bogus even if you think that there is significant opportunity, and there isn't.

[Dinner]

Sorry but this whole real wages BS doesn't seem correct to me at all. Sure the wages for the lowest of low hasn't gotten better but most middle and upper income people are doing just fine. If you buy realestate then you've been seeing an average appriation of 10% per year for every year between 1945 and today (at least in California where I live) and 75%-80% of Americans own there own home. How can you make an extra $20,000 per year in capital gains and not be getting head in your net worth?

I have no doubt a janitor making minimium wage has a hard life but anyone who bothers to try can get a better job then that. Heck, working as a waiter in college paid $12-$15 an hour and the Army (or other government job) will hire just about anyone who walks through the door and after a year or two you can easily be making $25,000-$40,000 depending upon your job and experience. That is many times the minimium wage. Cops and fire men hire tons of people and get paid between $35k-$70k depending upon experience and they will hire totally unexperienced people.

The communists who write things like "don't bother saving or working hard" like that person above who thing sit around and ***** about how it is just so hard to make it in the cruel world just don't know what they're talking about.

[Ming]

Originally posted by The Templar
Ming and Boddingtons seem to be suffering from "i know an orphan who ..." syndrome. That's where you know one orphan who started with nothing and built a great business empire. I'm glad you know some people who made it into the middle or upper class from the lower class.

You seem to be suffering from the "I don't know crap syndrome" and the "since I said it, it must be true" syndrome.

I work with a charity organization on the West Side of the City of Chicago, "The Off the Street Club"... It provides a place for kids who don't want to get Locked into the cycle of poverty can go to be safe and get ahead in life. The majority of the kids that have gone through the program have succeeded in life. The ones that don't end up going back to the "easy" life of selling drugs in a gang, and dying before their 21st birthday.
I'm a little tired of hearing people say it can't be done when I see the hard work these kids put into it and do succeed. By saying people can't, you are insulting everybody who ever tried and did succeed. If people are lazy, they won't succeed... and that's a simple fact.

There are millions of success stories all the time. You don't have to have venture capital or a degree from Harvard to succeed... What you do need is to work hard, have some good ideas, and follow your dreams.

Sitting on your butt and whining how unfair things isn't going to get you anywhere...

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by Ming
I never said it was fair... but it is reality. There are things the government can do to help... but welfare as it is now just sucks. The one thing government can't do is make parents responsible. The alternative is for the government to take all children away from people and raise them. And I for one think that's a terrible option.

Yes, it's a bad option but the current situation's pretty bad also. The solution probably lies somewhere in the middle.

The current nuclear family offers no redundancy. In cases where it's a single parent, if that one person does a bad job, their children get screwed.

In older days when people lived in extended families, if the immediate parents weren't able to do their job there would be other relatives to step in.

Nowadays however current law and living situation puts all the power and not enough of the responsibility in the hands of one or two people. Spreading out the power would lead to fewer of the extremely bad cases.