Question for communists . . . .

[Velociryx]

Kiddero....see you in the bread line?

-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

Originally posted by mindseye
[q]

Sounds suspiciously like "America, love it or leave it!"

Someone thinks I think like Slowwhand??

I am not saying that American communists need to leave their country.

I am not stating that communist ideology is not legitimate.

WHAT I AM SAYING IS I THOUGHT BEING A COMMUNIST MEANT THAT YOU NEEDED TO RENOUNCE CAPITALIST LUXURIES.

But a few people here have made valid points as to why communists can still live the way they do in a capitalist country, and still be a faithful commie.

And the nex time someone puts me on the same level as Slowwhand gets it!
(joking Slowwhand -- no intention to really insult)

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Mr. Fun, I'm pretty far from being a Communist, but I'll give answering the question a go:

I think it's a simple matter of lacking the courage of their convictions.

It's easy to *say* you're a communist (though why you'd want to say as much is something of a mystery to me, given its dismal track record), while posting on the internet from your privately owned computer, just before jetting off to Disney Land next month. It's not nearly so easy to actually live it (especially in the face of the constant pressures of all the evil capitalist empires out there).

Of course, the Commies will be quick to say that it (Communism) never really got a fair shake, on account of all the dictators who co-opted their perfect little world (Stalin-ism, Mao-ism, insertyourfavoritetinpotdictatorhere-ism), without acknowledging that flaws in the system (or as they prefer to say, flaws in humanity) are what makes the dictator's rise to power not only possible, but also pre-determined! Even better, they'll tell you that the reason it hasn't worked so far is because it was designed to be a global system, and if we'd all just try it out, magically, everything would fall into place (nevermind the fact that if it doesn't work on a small scale there's ZERO reason to expect it to be scalable, but that's another matter).

So at the end of the day, who can blame you? How much conviction can you really PUT into something with the kind of track record that Communism has?

-=Vel=-

I'm far from being a communist, but I'll ask a similar question to all the Republicans, free marketeers and economical right-wingers here who believe government intervention is bad and who ever bought or drank European wines (French champagne or so - well, perhaps you'd call it Freedom Champagne): Why did you drink them? You do realize Europe has a strong protectionist policy concerning everything related with agriculture, don't you?

Personally I think it's a simple matter of lacking the courage of your convictions. Obviously you're just a bunch of weak-willed morons.

It's easy to *say* you're against government intervention or subsidies (though why you'd want to say as much is something of a mystery to me, given its dismal track record), while just having the luck of being born in a welfaring middle class family, or being the one who had the luck of getting a good job while many others with the same talents didn't get one due to a bad economic situation. It's not nearly so easy to actually live it (especially in the face of the constant meddling of all the evil governmental laws out there).

Of course, the laisser-faire free marketeers will be quick to say that it (laisser-faire) never really got a fair shake, on account of all the poor people - all criminals and lazy bastards if you ask them - who co-opted their perfect little world (such dreadful things as health care, education and public transport), without acknowledging that flaws in the free market system (or as they prefer to say, flaws in humanity) are what makes those government interventions not only desirable, but also necessary! Even better, they'll tell you that the reason it hasn't worked so far is because it was designed to be a global system, and if we'd all just try it out, magically, everything would fall into place (never mind the fact that if it doesn't work on a small scale there's ZERO reason to expect it to be scalable, but that's another matter).

So at the end of the day, who can blame you? How much conviction can you really PUT into something with the kind of track record that laisser-faire has?

-=Maniac=-

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by MrFun

WHAT I AM SAYING IS I THOUGHT BEING A COMMUNIST MEANT THAT YOU NEEDED TO RENOUNCE CAPITALIST LUXURIES.

Why do you think that being Communist is like being some kind of monk?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Garth Vader


Why do you think that being Communist is like being some kind of monk?

It's not -- but many luxury products are produced -- surprise -- by capitalist businesses.

[Velociryx]

Nice try, Maniac, but your example was less than stellar.

Personally, I don't drink, and so fall outside the population of "French wine drinkers" in the first place, and in the second, it's not a diametric position to the original question posed (the diametric position is between Communists and Free Marketeers, not between Pure Free Marketeers and those who favor a range (from mild to some) of Governmental controls--which amounts to shades of gray.

As to the "accident of birth" thing....I don't buy it. Never have. I did not come from a family of means at all (unless you call living out of a red station wagon for the better part of a year as a child "well off" ), and although I'm certainly no Bill Gates, I'm heads and shoulders above where I came from, and not because of having a silver spoon shoved up my arse, either.

Work and diligence. Amazing what it can accomplish.

Finally, capitalism has proved to be the most efficient means of allocating resources of any system that's yet come along. If a better way presents itself, it is in the nature of capitalism to adopt it, and it will change accordingly. This has been the case in every scale it's been tried on.

So....nice try, bonus points for an interesting slant, but ultimately, not much of a troll.

-=Vel=-

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by MrFun


It's not -- but many luxury products are produced -- surprise -- by capitalist businesses.

Could it not be argued though, that these luxury products are produced by exploited workers, and that by indulging in them one is effectively supporting them prior to the revolution that will, er, "free" them?

It sounds lame even to me, but it's amazing what people will believe if it makes their lives easier.

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by MrFun


It's not -- but many luxury products are produced -- surprise -- by capitalist businesses.

Given that we live in a Capitalist society basically everything is produced by capitalist businesses, including food.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Cruddy


Could it not be argued though, that these luxury products are produced by exploited workers, and that by indulging in them one is effectively supporting them prior to the revolution that will, er, "free" them?

It sounds lame even to me, but it's amazing what people will believe if it makes their lives easier.

come again?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
Why do you think that being Communist is like being some kind of monk?

Are you sure you know what it means to be a communist? It might be a good idea to learn before you profess to be one.

A communist believes that everyone should have there minimal survival needs meet then the remaining wealth should be evenly distributed among all the human beings in society or ideally on Earth. Thus if you have luxury goods while an African is starving to death then you are not being a good communist. You, wanting to fulfill the communist ideal, should give away all of your worldly goods until everyone has an equal standard of living.

[Kidlicious]

The capitalists in a communist system will just lay down and die I guess.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by MrFun


come again?

The point I was getting at is that all those producers employ people who actually do the work.

The profits go to the company, while the workers are on a fixed rate.

Most organisations are like that - the people at the bottom do most of the work, see?

If you think of those organisations as individuals, rather than collections of human beings, it gets very easy to say that business does everything... when in fact humans do everything.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Are you sure you know what it means to be a communist? It might be a good idea to learn before you profess to be one.

A communist believes that everyone should have there minimal survival needs meet then the remaining wealth should be evenly distributed among all the human beings in society or ideally on Earth. Thus if you have luxury goods while an African is starving to death then you are not being a good communist. You, wanting to fulfill the communist ideal, should give away all of your worldly goods until everyone has an equal standard of living.

People have to do their share of work. They don't get paid for nothing. Why should a communist starve to death just because the capitalists are exploiting everyone.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The capitalists in a communist system will just lay down and die I guess.

Only if they want to live up to their professed ideals. Of course if you want to simply run around saying you like those ideals but then doing nothing to fulfill them then please be my guest. Just don't mind when no one takes your ideology seriously since not even its own adherents do.

[Garth Vader]

Oerdin, nice points.

Technically I don't think all remaining wealth should be distributed evenly, there should be some allocation for the people that contribute more. Just not the wild variation that we have now. We have a profit sharing agreement where I work, a percentage is spread evenly since we all contribute and the extra is discretionary in case some people had extra work. It's a good system because it rewards both teamwork and individual effort.

As for you other point, well ... when in Rome... We aren't going Communist any time soon, so might as well accept it and work within the system.