Hitler and Bush...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sava
If your knowledge and perception of all Communists is based upon the online rantings on 'Poly...

Not really. They're just the most convenient source. Historical examples (ex. The early adulation of the USSR) are also damn amusing as well.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Not really. They're just the most convenient source.

That's good I guess... I was starting to wonder about you. I'm not often wrong, but I thought you had a brain in your head. Glad to see I was right.

Historical examples (ex. The early adulation of the USSR) are also damn amusing as well.

Even high ranking members in the Communist Party were devout Orthodox Christians.

[ThePlagueRat]

Dino, you don't need Imran for that. I know exactly what you mean.

Listen... When I was younger, I once found myself at a summer camp with some political youngsters. Many different factions. And some radicals were going to arrange a party and some kind of a show.

I thought I'd take a look inside and there I saw all these people singing their communist hymns and from the roof there were red banners with their icons, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, and the genocidal... Stalin. Were they worshipping those, I thought?


I stood there for a while, to check out the atmosphere. Many young nicelooking chicks smiling at me too. It was wierd, those people looked like they were saved by some holy spirit. And some of the older guys started to preach some radical stuff. So then I went outside, I found a girl another place at the camp and we made out, as I tried to forget what I'd seen. But I never forget it, cause it was so wierd, as a religious sect.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm not against him, I just think he's wrong.

And monk, no offense, but when you speak of a grand revolution happening in the near future, I wonder if you are posting with an aluminum foil pyramid hat on your head.

Where is Imran when I need him? He had such an interesting theory on the similarities between communism and religion, IIRC.

Ah, well it isn't that far off, though it makes commies very mad (and it's a good troll ). It seems some commies have replaced religion with Communism. They have their own book (The Communist Manifesto instead of the Bible) and their own sort of God (Marx is held up like a shining beacon). They have great faith in this religi... ahem, ideology they hold. They believe that one day Communism will come... they don't know when, but some day, just like Christians believe that one day Christ will come back and Muslims and Jews believe that the Messiah will come one day. The faith of some of the foot soldiers is shocking. They believe in an idealist setting, only if these capitalists and their sheep could go away, we'd have perfection. Where everyone is always healthy and happy. It kind of sounds like heaven does it?

[monkspider]

I will try to create a post addresses many of Imran and Cyclo's posts at once, so bear with me and I apologize in advance if there are some points that go unaddressed

. Some here like to call capitalism a great success, and I can understand their reasoning, but it is merely in relativism to other systems that man has created. Certainly, if someone baked three cakes and two of them were burnt horribly, and the third slightly less so, we would not call consider that cake to be a success. So it is with capitalism.

Some disagree with my ideal of purpose. That is to say, to achieve a state of evolution that will result in communism is our ultimate purpose in this world. That is fine, and I don't blame them for disagreeing. All I can say is this, one day soon, you will begin to see things in a similar way. I know that sounds arrogant, I know you think I'm out of my gourd. And like I said, I don't blame you, and if I were you, I would probably ask Ming to ban me immediately. But regardless of all that, I can't help it. Now the logical next question is, how are you so sure of this, wise guy? An excellent question, whether we are aware of it or not, within all of us is a tiny spark, if you will, full of the flash and brilliance of a supernova, yet smaller than the smallest particle that mankind can detect. This spark represents man inner divinity, a divinity that has been obsecured for centuries, and only seen in our greatest and most wise teachers. Men like Jesus, Buddha, Ghandhi, Martin Luther King, and so on. That God is a part of all of us and we, a part of God is one of the greatest realizations we can make in this life. Now, what does this have to do with communism you ask? Nothing, except that coming to this conclusion inevitably results in a realization of responsiblity, that we are all symbiotically tied to each other, and what harms another, harms ourself. When we realize this, we will inevitably pursue a life of cooperation, or, communism as some have come to call it. But call it whatever you wish.

As for those who do not understand my analogy to Civ 2's fundamentalism, I was purposely being enigmatic with that comment. But allow me to explain. When I asked whether one feeling that fundamentalism was civ 2's best government naturally translated to that individual believing it was the best government in real life, I obviously knew what the answer was. Civ 2 is just a game, it has no bearing on the real world. Now consider this, what if this life had much more in common with Civ 2 than we realized? What if what we perceive to be the best system for the best rewards in this life, is nothing more than getting the most gold in Civ 2? So even if capitalism was the best system for getting "gold" in this life, it doesn't matter. This reality as we know it is little more than a game. The object of this game? To overcome life's various trials as best we can, to learn from our errors, to spread as much love as possible, and to come closer to God's perfection. Which is the only thing that matters in real life. So from that perspective, capitalism is indeed completely upside down from what matters in the real world.

I know one of the popular movies at this time is "The Matrix". A movie whose central purpose is that this world as we know it is a fraud, and there is a real world out there beyond this one. I always find it ironic how close to mark the matrix really is. No, we're not really enslaved by robots for electricity or anything like that. But yes, this world as know it is merely a front for the "real world". And yes, it is possible to see beyond Alice's rabbit hole. But, for the moment, I will leave it up to you to find out how. I know that sounds like the worst cop out ever and I do apologize. But trust me, it is much more fun and rewarding to find out yourselves. You will truly thank me later. I will just say this, upon your first conscious visit to the "real world", you will forever laugh at death.

[Sava]

Imran, despite the Republican belief that everything is "black and white", "with us or against us", and any other garbage cowboy thought processes; it is possible to think somebody is wrong, and to not be against them. To be against someone is to take an active role in opposition. I'm not taking any active role in protesting monk, his beliefs, and whatnot. I just don't agree with them.

[Sava]

monk: citing Civ2 and the matrix doesn't help your case...

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Sava
monk: citing Civ2 and the matrix doesn't help your case...

Perhaps not. But no biggie.

[ThePlagueRat]

Sounds reasonable enough Sava...

[Giancarlo]

Monkspider:

All I can say is this, one day soon, you will begin to see things in a similar way.

What an extremely imposing viewpoint to hold. I could easily say the same.. but people will jump me and kick my butt for it. Now I expect them to do the same for you. No people will not think the way you do because you are mistaken.

Certainly, if someone baked three cakes and two of them were cooked horribly, and the third slightly less so, we would not call that cake a success for that person. So it is with capitalism.

Again that type of reasoning is skewed and cannot be connected with capitalism. Capitalism is getting it right. Doing it right. And succeeding.

That God is a part of all of us and we, a part of God is one of the greatest realizations we can make in this life. Now, what does this have to do with communism you ask?

The thing you call god, the higher being, is purely a making of your own mind.

You are the representative of an evil dead empire we used to know as the USSR. Call it what you wish.. this is what your philosophy is based on. The Soviet doctrine. Communism is an evil in this world that must be dealt with. It must be given striking blows to the heart. 1991 was a striking blow for communism. And blows have been dealt to it since then. It only requires a bit more advancement on the part of capitalism, which will finally overcome the evil philosophy we know as communism.

Cooperation is capitalism. Capitalism is liberation for the people. Communism is imprisionment. To prevent an evil empire from arising in the world like the USSR, we must educate those who think communism is workable.

[Sava]

Monkspider's doctrine is not the same as the Soviet Doctrine Fez...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Certainly, if someone baked three cakes and two of them were cooked horribly, and the third slightly less so, we would not call that cake a success for that person.

Your analogy is flawed. Some bakes three cakes, the first is horrible, but edible. The second, better but still bad. The third is almost perfect, but it lacks just a little bit! The third is a success. Just because it is not all perfect doesn't mean he has failed.

This spark represents man inner divinity, a divinity that has been obsecured for centuries, and only seen in our greatest and most wise teachers. Men like Jesus, Buddha, Ghandhi, Martin Luther King, and so on. That God is a part of all of us and we, a part of God is one of the greatest realizations we can make in this life. Now, what does this have to do with communism you ask? Nothing, except that coming to this conclusion inevitably results in a realization of responsiblity, that we are all symbiotically tied to each other, and what harms another, harms ourself. When we realize this, we will inevitably pursue a life of cooperation, or, communism as some have come to call it. But call it whatever you wish.

Do you want me to call bull**** on you now or later?

I don't believe in a 'divine spark', I don't believe in the symbiotic relationship between all humanity and I don't think it has any basis in reality. Society, as we know it, is a creation of man. It may be a very important creation of man, but after all, man has still created it. It is not a divine spark, but a man made construct. God is not a part of us all and if he exists, he does not care about us puny humans on Earth. He has better things to do. Man evolved to our status. Perhaps God's initial act led eventually to it, but we developed from other lifeforms until humanity was created... then we, ourselves, decided how to work with one another. God was long gone by the time we decided to organize in groups.

What if what we perceive to be the best system for the best rewards in this life, is nothing more than getting the most gold in Civ 2?

What if people that percieve that there is a better system out there is nothing more than a pipe dream, an unrealistic fantasy? What is the purpose of life? There is no purpose. It is simply to be born, live, die. We are simply a more highly advanced animal, living in a cycle of life and death. Greed and self-interest are a part of us because it is hardwired, as it is in animals for survival. We have tried to create society to downplay this, but it can never be taken away.

We are simply a collection of cells, with no real meaning. We exist simply to exist. This IS the real world, but the one you have spun out of your head is fantasy and has no basis in reality and will not have any basis in reality. It simply will not be able to work on a grand scale unless we end scarcity by inventing matter replicators.

After all, it is said that we started out as cooperative communes (so Communists claim). If so, why aren't we still in them? Why did we stray? Because they weren't all they were cracked up to be, and the few that used their self-interest were able to destroy it.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sava
Monkspider's doctrine is not the same as the Soviet Doctrine Fez...

Gah I was overgeneralizing again... gotta be careful not to underestimate the evil nature of the opponent's skewed philosophy.

Lets just say his doctrine is based on something unrealistic and purely evil.

[Imran Siddiqui]

it is possible to think somebody is wrong, and to not be against them.

Not when you are debating AGAINST them, Sava .

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Sava
Monkspider's doctrine is not the same as the Soviet Doctrine Fez...

Thanks Sav, I actually don't like to think of myself as having any proper doctrine, per se. I'm a bit like you actually. I merely attach the "socialist" label to myself because I feel the need to identify with others in some way, even if I don't completely agree with the traditional doctrines that particular group espouses.