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I ain't Fez... but I tell you that a world in where everyone works in their self-interest, and in the end that results in the betterment of all as infinetly preferable... if simply because of all the advances in technology we get by self-interested invididuals wanting to make new things that people will buy.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Fezzie Wezzie- I'm not trying to force anything down anyone's throat. In fact, i would never dare. I have a very laid back policy of people merely taking what they may from my posts.
I have taken these posts as imposing and deeply threatening on my set of beliefs. Therefore I choose to stand my ground.
My purpose is merely to share knowledge with others. What they do with it is ultimately their choice. If I can help others in some miniscule way by posting here, then I have served my purpose.
Good that is what I wanted to know. We all should have that purpose. Posting what we know.
Don't worry Fez, down deep, behind all your hatred of commies, don't you see the beauty of a world living cooperatively, a world living for the betterment of all?
Absolutely. In fact that can be accomplished beautifully with capitalism.
Let's not even discuss whether it is feasible at this moment, don't even you, the most outspoken critic of communism, agree that such a world would be desirable?
A world of pure capitalism would be the way to go.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What don't you understand. It's actually pretty straightforward.
I think some of Lenin´s conclusions aren´t correct. I don´t consider me an economy expert, but some things he mentions don´t seem convincing to me.
First you have to understand about capitalism is that it necessarily leads to the accumulation of masses of capital in a few hands (there are mitigating factors and countervailing tendencies, however). Each crisis (depression, recession, etc) causes firms to fail. At other times, the logic of the market leads to mergers and take overs. Furthermore, simple success leads to the growth of capital in a single firm.
Yes, he argues that imperialism is monopolistic capitalism without competition. A monopoly is the death of competition. End of competition would lead to slowdown (or worse) in scientific/technical progress, which is one sign for a dying capitalism. However, some pages later he says monopolies don´t end competition, but they exist above or besides competition. But when there is still competition why shouldn´t the companies be driven by competition? Except in the rare case that for one industry only one monopoly exists, competition still takes place, today globally.
Also, while a crisis indeed causes firms to fail, and there is indeed a tendency to larger companies, one cannot ignore that there is always a "reinforcement" of new, small companies, which can fail or merge together too - and so on, and so on.
And Lenin says the capitalism is dying, but agrees basically that at his time, capitalism is growing faster than ever. Since this is the case at his time, when there is already imperialism (highest form af capitalism), why assume it is dying?
Over time, this leads to monopoly capitalism, a handful of firms dominating most industries, either by being a monopoly (MS, Standard Oil, etc), a trust, or a cartel. By controling their segment of the market, they can command supply, and they can take extra profit.
That I don´t find convincing, because what is a strict monopoly? Maybe MS comes close (but not to 100%) but in most other fields we still don´t have monopolies. We have a number of big car builders only in Germany, and more worldwide. We have a number of competitors in military technology, in biotech or chemistry, we have Boeing and Airbus in a fierce competition, we have several big oil companies etc. etc. And once a monopoly isn´t always a monopoly.
So, mr moneybags is left with a problem, where to put his money to use? The third world! There, they capital can produce great quantities of profit, as costs are so low. Of course, you want your capital defended, so the British Navy followed the pound around the world. The French Foreign Legion defend the Franc, and so on.
There is, however, adds to the contradiction. Now they have even more profits they need to invest, and quickly the world is carved up. Then they begin eyeing the other empires, to take their colonies, their resources, their labor markets. The next thing you know, world war.
Yes, that would mean a problem if there is nothing left to colonize. Lenin argued therefore that WWI was the consequence of imperialism, because the big powers tried to re-divide the world. I would agree here. But the big colonial empires broke down some decades after the end of WWII while capitalism in the "big players" of colonialism like France and Britain is still alive and well. Germany or Japan after WWII were quickly successful again without colonies. How can they do it, without having colonies (anymore), which were defined by Lenin as essential for more profit, therefore for the survival of capitalism?
According to Lenin the year 1917 marks the beginning of the global proletarian revolution (he writes that 1920 in the introduction of the French and German editions for his theory). That was quite a big prophecy.....
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'll bet you 1 million dollars, or how much gold that is worth that this prediction will NOT come true .
Well, I don't have a million dollars, and it is unlikely that either gold or "dollars" will have any real value in twenty years. But that said, I would happily wager anything or everything on such a bet. But don't worry, I will never call you on it. Let us merely share a drink some day to celebrate our victory.
It seems to be working where I sit. I'm typing at a personal computer created by capitalist companies, on a website dedicated to a game made by and distributed by commerical capitalism. I definetly think capitalism has been an overwhelming success and boon to the world. This world would be far, far worse without it.
As I said my friend, it has survived, obviously we need look no further than Apolyton as proof of that. Has it been a success? Any system that has brought so much suffering could never be called a success by any stretch of the imagination. It has brought some progress though, and it is quite a step from feudalism, after all, it was not long ago that a feudal lord made this quote:
"What? You mean commoners should be permitted to acquire wealth and land? Perish the thought! God clearly intended some to rule and others to be ruled. If this liberal economics idea takes hold then anyone will be able to own land and achieve wealth putting them at the level of the nobility. Horrors!"
While capitalism is conservative in our time, and make no mistakes, it was once a very liberal ideal. But, humanity has evolved a great deal since that time, and it is nearly ready to make the final step.
I agree... but I would argue that for some, environment and social conditioning would dictate whether or not they go through with it the psychos are mostly hard-wired for it
capitalism will win over the entire world
Believe it or not Fez, but I agree. That's why I wish you wouldn't throw around stereotypes. I'm partly a capitalist in the truest sense. I'll even paraphrase Ronald Reagan, who said something like this...
"While flying in Air Force One, I see the swimming pools, the cars, the houses, the consumers shopping. That's what people want, and we should bring that to the rest of the world." --paraphrased Ronald Reagan
I agree with this 100%. I just disagreed with his methods and thought that some of his actions were contrary to his goals. I also believe that every human being has inherent civil rights that a Democracy should provide. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And somehow, health care has a lot to do with protecting life.
Most of my anti-Republican rants are motivated by the corruption and abuse that I see going on. I agree with most of what Bush says. I want to see job creation and prosperity for ALL in economic policy. I want to see better education in America. I want to see freedom, Democracy, and consumer capitalism spread across the globe. I want my future children to live in a peaceful world. And as much as this rhetoric is spoken, the actions of Bush and the Republican party comes in contrast with these ideals. Their economic policy doesn't create jobs... and only rich corporations prosper... and at the expense of the poor and middle classes. Education isn't even close. Bush has left every child behind. Everything he's done for education hasn't worked. And in fact, he's cut many educational programs. But the media conglomerates don't report that. You don't see it on mainstream websites or the nightly news. The hypocrisy is evident in their foreign policy as well. How am I supposed to believe in Bush's rhetoric when so many close to the administration are profiting because of the war. Or when the foreign policy is only consistent towards countries that are oil/economically rich?
Fez, and others: I certainly don't agree with Communist ideals. And monkspider, with all due respect, I don't agree with you or your vision of the future. I just wish you guys would stop thinking that everyone is part of a political party, listen to what I say, try to understand my point of view, and perhaps share yours so I can better understand you.
I will drive a tank through the streets and pick up a rifle to prevent any such communist victory.
But seriously monkspider, you can't win.. the corporations have been far too successful. The people have been far too successful for you to win. You will lose like the rest of your fellow radicals who only want to impose suffering and imprisionment. Long live the capitalist system, long live the liberation of the people.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
I have taken these posts as imposing and deeply threatening on my set of beliefs. Therefore I choose to stand my ground.
Oh they're no threat to anyone's beliefs, don't worry Fezzie. I am sorry that you feel that way.
A world of pure capitalism would be the way to go.
So you say a world of pure capitalism is best, fair enough. But you would agree that capitalism is not without fault, even if you feel it is the best system. Wouldn't you prefer a society where mankind lived cooperatively rather than in constant competetion? A society where where poverty and war are things of the past? Let's us not even discuss whether these things are feasible, you would agree that this would be a preferable world to the one we currently live in, would you not?
Awww sava.. thank you for that kind hearted post.. see we can reach common ground. We just gotta search for it. We got similarities.. whether each of us doesn't like to admit it or not.. We are both handsome.. haha.. but we both can find common ground in our beliefs. There is some common ground.. maybe not a lot.. but it is there.
I still disagree with you about the Republican party and Bush though.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
it is unlikely that either gold or "dollars" will have any real value in twenty years.
I thought you might say that .
Let us merely share a drink some day to celebrate our victory.
If it ever did happen in my lifetime, I'd be in the country somewhere armed with the counterrevolution .
As I said my friend, it has survived, obviously we need look no further than Apolyton as proof of that. Has it been a success?
It's done more than survived. It has obviously succeeded! The per capita income in this world is many, many, many (100s) of times what it was in 1800. That indicates success. The countries that have embraced capitalism have very good standards of living. Technology has exploded because of it. The world is richer and closer because of the success of capitalism.
Any system that has brought so much suffering could never be called a success by any stretch of the imagination.
Has capitalism brought the suffering or was it already here? The latter is the correct answer. People who live under capitalism are much better than when those people did not live under the system. The poor are on much better grounds, and the entire society is richer and more successful.
Capitalism is full of success and I am proud to be a supporter of it.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Originally posted by monkspider
So you say a world of pure capitalism is best, fair enough. But you would agree that capitalism is not without fault, even if you feel it is the best system. Wouldn't you prefer a society where mankind lived cooperatively rather than in constant competetion? A society where where poverty and war are things of the past? Let's us not even discuss whether these things are feasible, you would agree that this would be a preferable world to the one we currently live in, would you not?
All systems have faults in them. It is just that capitalism has the least. Competition is the way it should be. I am a very competitive person. I mean no offense but competition attains cooperation. So your view is slightly skewed in my honest opinion on how the reality is.
If there can be a large middle class, some upper class and a small lower class in every nation.. I would be more than happy. That is called capitalism. It works.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
Originally posted by monkspider
Wouldn't you prefer a society where mankind lived cooperatively rather than in constant competetion?
No. Competition makes us human, it validates our existence by providing reason for our effort and our lives. It's also more fair than communism.
A society where where poverty and war are things of the past?
Capitalism does not depend on poverty. I see no reason why we can't eventually bring all people out of poverty in a capitalist system, although certainly it won't be a libertarian system or some far right-wing sh*t.
As for war, I think that has more to do with the existence of nations and weaponry than their economic systems.
Lime roots and treachery!
"Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten
I ain't Fez... but I tell you that a world in where everyone works in their self-interest, and in the end that results in the betterment of all as infinetly preferable... if simply because of all the advances in technology we get by self-interested invididuals wanting to make new things that people will buy.
Ah, self-interest, the magical words that make capitalism tick. Consider this old friend, what if I told you there was far more to this reality than what we own, more than making fancy things for people to buy. What if this our purpose in this world is not owning the most possessions, but living in cooperation with all others? Certainly you would agree that capitalism is quite impractical for these ideals? You can say that capitalism has created new technologies and so on, it's irrelevent. Under a true society in communist vein, we will become the new technology. I am not sure what your religious beliefs are, christian, muslim, etc, they're irrelevent. All I ask of you is this, is fundamentalism the best government in our world because one would consider it the best government in Civ 2? If you don't think it is, then you will find that you and I are ultimately in agreement.
Cooperation is attained by capitalism. That is what a business is. These business then compete to improve living standards. Do you monkspider really want to destroy this? I will be the first to stop you.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
I still disagree with you about the Republican party and Bush though.
That's okay. But this is the reason we should continue to share our thoughts, information, and experience in a civilized manner. The more we talk, the more we can learn about each other. And hopefully, come to an agreeable compromise. The essence of Democracy!
Originally posted by Sava
That's okay. But this is the reason we should continue to share our thoughts, information, and experience in a civilized manner. The more we talk, the more we can learn about each other. And hopefully, come to an agreeable compromise. The essence of Democracy!
Even the near authoritarian has to participate in democracy. I like how things are working now. I am trying darn hardest to not say anything rude... I am just getting out of my teenage years... it will take some time.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
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