Hitler and Bush...

[Sava]

The hardliners would have probably killed Trotsky.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Mao


I still contend that the basic truths of communism have worked well in BioDome projects and within a small family unit. Of course, it could then be contended that because the scale is so small, it is not communism. *shrug*

thats debatable, i suppose, but thats how it works.

families have a major common intrest, yes? they're all essentially working for one goal.

society, as a whole, may be striving for one goal, but the individuals become more diverse with the larger population.

the way i see it, communism/socialism will not evolve successfully from the current system.

what you need to do, is teach children from an early age, the ways and values of communism. i'm not talking brainwashing, i'm just talking about teaching them and instilling values.

for example, we teach young children that killing / hurting another is wrong. we attempt to write over actions that are deep rooted within our evolutionary mind.

same with monogomy. overwiting what nature has installed in us.

another thing right there is greed. back long ago, greed aided survival. the more food the had, the better chances you had to live / carry on your traits.

but, for some reason, society embraced greed rather than trying to deter it. and thats why capitialism thrives and communism ultimately "fails", the people were raised in a way that supported greediness, and just changing into communism is hard.

i firmly believe, if you took a population, of say, 5,000 young children, and raised them in isolation with adults that firmly believed in Communism, a communism society would thrive. And I think the next generations would maintain their values, and the society would continue to thrive.

i've often pondered the utility of religion in the formation of such a society.

how that society would react to other (greedy capitialistic) societies is unknown.

worth a shot. gimmie some fertile land, some money, and 5000 babies.

[Sava]

I agree with you Uber.... for Communism (as Marx described it, NOT what has existed) to succeed, people need to instill the values of equality and hard-work in raising their children, while maintaining the value that greed is bad.

IMO, the best humans can do, at this point, is a Social Democracy. Capitalism has it's faults, and a truly good system would encorporate the advantages of capitalism while compensating for its weaknesses.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Sava
I agree with you Uber.... for Communism (as Marx described it, NOT what has existed) to succeed, people need to instill the values of equality and hard-work in raising their children, while maintaining the value that greed is bad.

This what the parents are suppose to do, with the addition of a good load of critical spirit for self protection.

[Imran Siddiqui]

for some reason, society embraced greed rather than trying to deter it.

It is hard to deter something which is basically innate in humanity. You said it yourself... it was needed because it aided survival. Trying to get rid of greed would be futile in the end.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


This what the parents are suppose to do,

I agree

with the addition of a good load of critical spirit for self protection.

Humanity's biggest problem is poor parenting. I don't care what anyone else says, IMO every single problem in the world can be linked to poor parenting...

[Sava]

Trying to get rid of greed would be futile in the end.

I disagree. I just think it would be really, really hard.

[Firelad]

Uber: The Kibbutzim are failing. After 3 generations, the children are moving to the city, the economies of the kibbutzim are a disaster and all in all that experiment is nearing its end.
On the other hand, you could argue that with the incredible push for nationalism that wasn't true communism either and that is the reason it died. Or the media. Who knows. Fact is, they didn't survive contact with the capitalist society around them, even though the living conditions in the kibbutzim (I believe even the worst-off of those) is better than much of the surrounding society. And yet the children leave. Why?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think it wouldn't work. It's like those parents that try to raise their boys to be, well... less male, and more sensitive. Then they take their dolls and cut of their heads or use them as guns. Conditioning isn't going to train something hardwired in us.

[Sava]

I don't believe greed is hard-wired. Survival is... They are different.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Conditioning isn't going to train something hardwired in us.

Education incorporating critical spirit is the opposite of conditioning. Fortunately it works.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

for some reason, society embraced greed rather than trying to deter it.

It is hard to deter something which is basically innate in humanity. You said it yourself... it was needed because it aided survival. Trying to get rid of greed would be futile in the end.

trying to get rid of murding people who thretan you seems to have worked over time, overall.

[Sava]

the 30,000 some Americans who get murdered each year would disagree with you

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't believe greed is hard-wired. Survival is... They are different.

Greed has been necessary to survival. After all isn't self-interest that which has allowed us to live in the past? I don't think they are that different at all.

And as Gordon Gecko in the movie Wall Street said: Greed is good!

[Whaleboy]

"Communism is a failure every single place it has been tried "

Numerous small examples, look at some examples from ancient India, the Buddhist derivatives, also more modern examples like communist philosophies creating stuff, like the FOSS communities and also lets not forget communes that exist and have been existing for years, most noteabily Kibbutzes in Israel.

Communism, Lenin/Stalin style sucks, I'll agree with that. But that was just one interpretation of heaven knows how many wildly different varients. Stalinism failed. It failed for a reason.

That reason was nothing to do with Marx, the link between communism and the failure of that society has not really been successfully shown and proven.

I await the rectifying of that situation, though I doubt it'll come.