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  • #151
    Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
    Sorry about you relatives who was killed in the Civil War.
    Don't worry about it. Bad occurrances just happen. The war caused a lot of division. Franco was at least a strong leader who led the country out of pain. You may disagree with him completely, but I respect him.

    I guess it could have been fascists who did it as well?
    My grandfather served in the Nationalist army (fascists). Took a bullet in the arm which caused him to leave the force.

    The nationalists did bad things.. but I usually come to the question.. who was better for the country? Some of you may hate my answer, but I would of picked the nationalists any day.
    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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    • #152
      Originally posted by monkspider
      I will try to create a post addresses many of Imran and Cyclo's posts at once, so bear with me and I apologize in advance if there are some points that go unaddressed
      All is forgiven.

      Some disagree with my ideal of purpose. That is to say, to achieve a state of evolution that will result in communism is our ultimate purpose in this world. That is fine, and I don't blame them for disagreeing. All I can say is this, one day soon, you will begin to see things in a similar way. I know that sounds arrogant, I know you think I'm out of my gourd.
      I don't think you're crazy, I just don't think what you are saying can be taken seriously if your justification for it is a worldview that you have not argued, even feebly, to be true. I mean, I'm willing to entertain arguments about whether equality is the purpose of human existence, but I'll need some arguments for it first.

      Now the logical next question is, how are you so sure of this... [abridged] Now, what does this have to do with communism you ask? Nothing, except that coming to this conclusion inevitably results in a realization of responsiblity, that we are all symbiotically tied to each other, and what harms another, harms ourself. When we realize this, we will inevitably pursue a life of cooperation, or, communism as some have come to call it. But call it whatever you wish.
      This isn't really a coherent argument, but if it was I would say that you are leaping to conclusions. Having a sense of responsibility, and even having a sense of responsibility to other people, does not lead to Communism. I, for example, see my responsibility to others as a duty to create for them conditions in which they can express themselves and advance themselves as individuals to the very limits of their human capacity. In other words, my responsibility to others is my committment to freedom.

      Capitalism, as far as I can tell, harms nobody in of itself. To me, the greatest harm we can do to each other is to limit the potential and drive of our fellow man. In this way, I view communism as one of the greatest immoralities of our time, because it encourages an abdication of responsibility (especially responsibility to the self) and because it limits that which, in my view, makes us human (thus, it is unnatural and degrading).
      Lime roots and treachery!
      "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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      • #153
        Originally posted by Fez
        I found out one of my relatives was murdered by communist forces during the Spanish Civil War. So I also have a reason to ***** about it.
        Sorry to hear that Fez... as I prefaced, I was ignorant of such facts.
        To us, it is the BEAST.

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        • #154
          Originally posted by Sava
          Sorry to hear that Fez... as I prefaced, I was ignorant of such facts.
          No, no.. you should blame my inability of bringing it up earlier.
          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

          Comment

          • #155
            Originally posted by cyclotron7
            Capitalism, as far as I can tell, harms nobody in of itself. To me, the greatest harm we can do to each other is to limit the potential and drive of our fellow man. In this way, I view communism as one of the greatest immoralities of our time, because it encourages an abdication of responsibility (especially responsibility to the self) and because it limits that which, in my view, makes us human (thus, it is unnatural and degrading).
            Well don't worry. I support the same things that you do. Freedom, working as hard as possible, etc. I'm really quite a bit of a libertarian in many ways. I'm not advocating some central apparatus to arbitrarily redistribute wealth. That was an invention of 20th century communism, a communism that was a result of a humanity in it's adolescence. A point in our growth where we began identifying and expressing our needs, desires, and rights, with adulthood will come the responsibilty that I spoke of earlier. Again I do apologize if it seemed that I was ignoring you earlier, but this is a fast moving forum.
            http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

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            • #156
              Ummm.. monkspider.. capitalism does all of that and more. It fulfills the wishes and needs of the people. It is the only system that does that, as an economic system.
              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

              Comment

              • #157
                Originally posted by cyclotron7
                Capitalism, as far as I can tell, harms nobody in of itself.
                What about all the people who live below the poverty line?

                Originally posted by cyclotron7
                To me, the greatest harm we can do to each other is to limit the potential and drive of our fellow man.
                So you evaluate the system by how rich a few people can get?
                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                Comment

                • #158
                  Originally posted by Kidicious
                  So you evaluate the system by how rich a few people can get?
                  I think he was evaluating based on how big the middle class can get, in this case a majority of the population in capitalism.
                  For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                  Comment

                  • #159
                    Allright Fez.
                    I will admit that I do not sympatize with any particular faction during that war. Civil wars are always sad things.

                    My grandpa served in the Royal Norwegian Army during the Nazi-German invasion. Luckily, he did not take any bullets, cause the whole army was disbanded as Norway surrendered, too early.
                    But a secret resistance was created instead.

                    Later he became a pacifist, and he did refuse to have anything more to do with warfare and the military. He was a true christian and wished no one any harm. So I'm kinda proud of him because of that.
                    My words are backed with hard coconuts.

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                    • #160
                      Well PlagueRat, you got to look at my situation. We had Franco for nearly thirty five years (1939-1975) as a leader.

                      The civil war was indeed sad but the situation was very bad in the country. The economy was doing very poorly before the war... it didn't recover with great expansions until the 1960s, and didn't get up to par with the rest of Europe until the 1990s.
                      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                      Comment

                      • #161
                        Originally posted by Fez
                        I think he was evaluating based on how big the middle class can get, in this case a majority of the population in capitalism.
                        I say we make it 100% of the population. In otherwords, why should we have classes at all.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                        Comment

                        • #162
                          Originally posted by Kidicious


                          I say we make it 100% of the population. In otherwords, why should we have classes at all.
                          Impossible. That is too socialist or communist. I can't agree with that. There must be classes for there to competition. If we don't have competition, this would be a boring world and the suicide rates would go up.
                          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                          Comment

                          • #163
                            You're being very nebulous about what exactly "communism" means to you, in a functional sense. You're not really telling me anything about Communism, just assuring me that what you think is similar to what I think in some general, equally nebulous way.
                            Lime roots and treachery!
                            "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

                            Comment

                            • #164
                              Originally posted by Kidicious
                              What about all the people who live below the poverty line?
                              As previously stated, capitalism does not depend on people being poor, just on general stratification of society. Capitalism itself is not to blame for their poverty.

                              So you evaluate the system by how rich a few people can get?
                              How did you get that from my statement?
                              Lime roots and treachery!
                              "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

                              Comment

                              • #165
                                Originally posted by Fez


                                Impossible. That is too socialist or communist. I can't agree with that. There must be classes for there to competition. If we don't have competition, this would be a boring world and the suicide rates would go up.
                                Suicide rates? I think more people commit suicide because of poverty than lack of competition. Bill Gates doesn't commit suicide and he doesn't have much competition.
                                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                                Comment

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