What are your plans?

[Solly]

So let's see.

If a straight person goes gay, it is because he really was always gay and was repressing it.

If a gay person goes straight, it is because society has forced him to.

[Giancarlo]

Boddington, that doesn't make any sense. You are forgetting a person can be attracted to both genders, making him bisexual. I never did say bisexuality doesn't exist. But a person cannot change from gay to straight, or straight to gay.. I just don't see how that is possible either way.

[Japher]

Also the other reason I evaded your questions is because you equated being gay as being some kind genetic error. I really don't think so.

Exactly what I think. I don't even think it is genetic. I don't think it is even a mental defect (which may becaused by chemical imbalances, child abuse, etc.).

Since on none of those things I equate it to a choice. Not a choice like am I going to wear the red pants or the green pants. It is more of a life style choice that is made when the person reaches sexual maturity and is determined by a myraid of things (just not genetic). I equate it along the lines of a career choice; while some kids are "gifted" to be athletes, or doctors, or computer geeks. It is, as Fez says, something that can't be explained. Why are you good at math? You don't know! Yet, you like it, so you do it, and you get better. Why do like football, chess, painting, scuplting, playing music, etc.? Many people even like things they suck at, and continue to do it even though they suck at it, or aren't built for it, or weren't encouraged to do so.

For example; There are many ppl out there who love to write, but absolutly suck at it. Take a look on the web, and you will find them; just search "fan fiction"

I think the point that Fez et. al. is trying to make, and is something that I am trying to understand, is that homosexuality is not a choice, it just is. In the same way that you may have a talent or a skill and can't explain why you are more inclined at said talent/skill... It just is.

Maybe my friend who became gay did not realize that skill/talent until a later age, but once he found it decided to run with it. Kind of like with Wagner and his late start in writting operas.

Sorry to equate it such things (if it offends anyone) but I am trying to understand and this makes sense to me.

If a straight person goes gay, it is because he really was always gay and was repressing it.

If a gay person goes straight, it is because society has forced him to.

The thing is that ppl can choose to not follow who they are, or what they are talented at, but they can't always choose to follow what/who they are. I.e. Galileo.

I think in most cases a person who turns gay was oppressing their nature, if they were even aware of it. Maybe due to society, maybe due to their upbring... who knows. Yet, I think the same thing may be true if a gay person goes straight... I have a family member who is getting married to someone of the opposite who when they met was gay. Why? I don't know. Maybe that person is bi. Yet, many things can make us choose our lifestyles and if we wish to acknowledge certian aspects of our being. I believe that many things can over come ones own nature, that is what willpower is.

Thus, in the end it is still all a choice. To be who you are, or to be someone else.

Let me point out that Roman times most men had a wife (a woman) and a lover (generally a man). It wasn't taboo or frowned upon, it was just the way things were.

[Monk]

Okay, I'll agree to withdraw the "genetic error" part. I didn't mean to start a terminological debate. We can call it a coincidence or something similar if you guys prefer that.

EDIT: (Also note that I'm advocating the environmental side of this debate. This means my stand is actually that genes don't play a major role on this, so I would contradict myself heavily if I said homosexuals had a genetic error.)

I realize Lorizael was right on more than one account. So I'll stop rephrasing my questions to you, Fez, unless you should suddenly reply to the last paragraph of posting 03-06-2003 17:59 with something more substantial than a mere "You just don't make sense".

[Ben Kenobi]

Or maybe they are bisexual.

So my question is this:

Considering your definition, would there be any room for gay or straight or would we all be bisexual? When you define orientation as the attraction of one person to another, I find sexual preference is a much better way to express this idea. If there is something built into a person, this would be a much better argument for an orientation.

As for the corruption of homosexuality, that Bodds stated earlier, two points.

1. I'm a Christian, so what is corrupt or not for everybody comes from what the Bible says,

2. The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is one of many types of sexual sin, no greater or lesser than say adultery.

[Giancarlo]

Japher, being gay is not a choice. If it were, I would be straight because of the type of crap I have to put up with. I said this many times before. It cannot be equated with career choice or anything like that.

Obiwan:

1. I'm a Christian, so what is corrupt or not for everybody comes from what the Bible says,

I am atheist so I am not listening to you.

2. The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is one of many types of sexual sin, no greater or lesser than say adultery.

The bible this, the bible that.. I don't want to hear that. I have had a bit of that from some people who think they are above everybody else. I am an atheist existentialist. There is nothing you can do about it.

And homosexuality is not corrupting.

Religious nut case.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by obiwan18
2. The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is one of many types of sexual sin, no greater or lesser than say adultery.

Which is why I never understood why people like Phelps only go after homosexuality. If you're gonna call something a sin, at least treat it equal to other sins.

Fez, you were angry at Monk for accidentally saying something offensive. Now, Obiwan simply states his beliefs and you call him a religious nutcase. Talk about arrogance. He believes what he believes because of a religious text. Where do your beliefs come from? Both may be irrational or illogical, yet yours are okay because they're yours, and his make him a religious nutcase because you've got something against Christianity. Talk about hypocrisy.

And I've got a question for you. Two questions, actually. Since you've stated more than once that your opinion will not change, why are you still in this thread? You can't possibly hope to actually convince people, because all you offer are opinions.

My other question, on what haven't you closed your mind? Is there anything in your life, anyone of your beliefs that you would actually consider changing?

I shouldn't be picking on you, Fez. I mean, I'm an atheist and a confused individual when it comes to sexuality, so I should be on your side, but your horrible attitude towards all of this really ticks me off. Your mind is closed at eighteen. What the hell are you gonna do with the seventy or eighty years of life you've got left to you?

[Giancarlo]

Lorizael, it is quite simple.. I'll do whatever it takes. I'll even die for my beliefs if it so be required.

anyone of your beliefs that you would actually consider changing?

Political and Religious? No. I am atheist, and will remain that way.

But anyways...

Yeah I might say I would die for my beliefs.. that may come as a bit fanatical.. but I crossed the line when calling him a religious nut case. I think a vacation time is approaching fast for me. Obiwan, I apologize for calling you that, it was uncalled for.

I understand Lorizael that you are confused. And I should of been a bit more respectful towards others, and actually suggesting that I could give advice. But due to the anger I displayed towards other people, I will just shut up right now for the better for everybody.

[Solly]

[Jaguar]

I think Spink made one excellent point, but otherwise this thread has been really boring: Gay adoption is an extension of the Gay Rights movement. It isn't really about helping children.

Open question:
Are there actually 3 neat little categories of homosexual, heterosexual, and bisexual?

[Ben Kenobi]

Fez:

Obiwan, I apologize for calling you that, it was uncalled for.

Apology accepted. From my perspective, there are a fair number of people to the right of my views on this issue. Keep that in mind.

[MrFun]

What is scary is that some of Boddington's arguments seem to be what Adolf Hitler would have used in talking about homosexuals (threat to society/family, etc). The usual fear mongering that bigots use against any minority group, actually.

But anyway -- I have some questions for Monk, or any one else interested in participating in this thread:

If the environment is the factor for sexual orientation development -- do you believe that you became straight out of this environmental influence?

If sexual orientation is a choice as others have argued -- do you believe you CHOSE to be straight?

Oh, and one more question I guess -- why has everyone with whom I have discussed these issues with in the gay community, have said they did not choose to be gay? I know I did not choose to be gay.

[Solly]

What the hell are you on about Fun? Hitler has nothing on me, I believe in traditional family values. Homosexuals are not living in sin but those performing acts of homosexuality are.

[Giancarlo]

Boddy, what do you define as traditional family values? Your own self definition? Or that given by some book written by groups of people afraid of death? You so full of it.

[MrFun]

All I wanted to do in this thread, was to find out what other people's plans were for Gay Pride.

Ming, you can close this thread.