What are your plans?

[Giancarlo]

I am sorry but I am still a little bit impacient.

Also by point taken, it doesn't necessarily mean he has a point.. I am just it has been noted. I later noted that same point as irrelevant to the discussion.

Okay in my case it won't change. I like guys.. and why is that a big deal for some people?

[Lorizael]

Because the puritans that founded the United States like to spout off about "traditional family values" and a book they seem to think is greater than all other books in the world for no particular reason.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Monk
Fez,
........ A one line post merely stating your opinion won't be sufficient, I'm afraid.

Do you realize you left yourself open for a really long post stating his opinion?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Fez

Sexual "preferences"? How about sexual orientation. Sorry no, sexual orientation cannot change and there are no true instances of that ever occurring.

Sexual preferences? You mean sexual orientation. Being gay is like being striaght. There are no differences there.

That's very dogmatic, and also very wrong. I know many people who changed their sexual orientation. Of course you may raise the canard that "they were not gay / straight in the first place", but then I ask: What use is there building this construct called sexual orientation that seems to mean nothing more than whatever you are doing now?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sikander


That's very dogmatic, and also very wrong.

I would like to know why it is wrong.

I know many people who changed their sexual orientation.

Okay maybe I will concede a small point here.. but I am talking about myself. I cannot change. I don't know if these people you know are being honest to themselves. But I don't care as I don't know them.

Or maybe they are bisexual.

What use is there building this construct called sexual orientation that seems to mean nothing more than whatever you are doing now?

It is the way I am. There is nothing I can do about it. I can't change.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Japher

Fez: I have a friend who is gay, and before I met him he was married for over 5 years... to a girl! Are you saying that he never really was straight and that he was just deluding himself?

I never knew him before so I can't say. Yet is not possible that all people are asexual and that everyone can be attracted to both sexes? Could it not be possible that, since we can be attracted to both sexes, that some outside factor ultimately determines are taste in sex? Pretty much in the same way as our taste in foods, clothing, movies, games, etc. are governed? I think that all sexuality is an aquired taste and that it has nothing to do with 'nature' but with the humane gift of choice. What governs that choice, however, is not always left up to the chooser.

This is likely a case of a closeted man who did not realize he was gay, or who repressed who he really was and wanted to comform to our homophobic society by marrying a woman.

I vouch that the guy you mentioned was always gay while he dated, and then married the woman. There are a lot of older gay men who in previous years, felt they had to marry to conform, or simply denied their own self identity. Then later, they end up divorcing after having cheated on their wife by having discrete sex with other men.

Your posts just reinforce my belief that many heterosexuals can never understand the nature of what it is like to be homosexual.

And Bod -- there is nothing corrupt about being an avowed homosexual.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Fez

I would like to know why it is wrong.

Becaue you said sexual orientation can never be changed, and I have evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Fez

Okay maybe I will concede a small point here.. but I am talking about myself. I cannot change. I don't know if these people you know are being honest to themselves. But I don't care as I don't know them.

Or maybe they are bisexual.

It depends on what your definition of bisexual is. If you define it as someone who has had sex with both men and women, then by that definition they are bisexual. If you define it as someone who is attracted to both genders or has sex with both genders, then they weren't bi. They were one way, and then the other.

Originally posted by Fez

It is the way I am. There is nothing I can do about it. I can't change.

I'm not asking you to change, merely to validate the fact that others have. They weren't trying to either, it just happened.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sikander


Becaue you said sexual orientation can never be changed, and I have evidence to the contrary.

Well for me I am saying.

It depends on what your definition of bisexual is. If you define it as someone who has had sex with both men and women, then by that definition they are bisexual. If you define it as someone who is attracted to both genders or has sex with both genders, then they weren't bi. They were one way, and then the other.

I usually go by the definition of who is attracted to who. If a guy is attracted to guys and women, and only has sex with women, he is still bisexual.

I'm not asking you to change, merely to validate the fact that others have. They weren't trying to either, it just happened.

I still reject the fact that others can "change". That is a load of nonsense. You are either gay, bisexual or straight. You can't flip it off like a light switch. I learned that the hard way. And now I got a boyfriend.. sheesh.. I am probably better off than those who claim that they have "changed". Let me guess it was with religious doctrine involved?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Fez

Well for me I am saying.

Now you are saying that, when I made my point you were saying that it was impossible absolutely.

Originally posted by Fez

I usually go by the definition of who is attracted to who. If a guy is attracted to guys and women, and only has sex with women, he is still bisexual.

So you use the second definition, simultaneous attraction / activity with both genders.

Originally posted by Fez

I still reject the fact that others can "change". That is a load of nonsense. You are either gay, bisexual or straight. You can't flip it off like a light switch. I learned that the hard way. And now I got a boyfriend.. sheesh.. I am probably better off than those who claim that they have "changed". Let me guess it was with religious doctrine involved?

You can't still reject the fact, as you changed your stance already to one of acceptance. The phrase you want to use here: I again reject...

And I never said anyone was flipping anything on or off like a lightswitch. Not one of these people made an effort to change, they just noticed that they suddenly had a crush on a guy even though they had been lesbians for some time, or vice versa. Interestingly none of them has ever changed back to gay, though some who changed from straight to gay changed back years later.

None of these people are religious in the conservative sense, and none hold any malice toward gays or homosexuality in general. There are more Bhuddists than Christians in their number, and they are all very liberal / progressive types. They had all come out of the closet long before they made their switch.

I know even more straight people who became gay. Are they switching on and off like lightbulbs? Is their orientation switch merely the product of peer pressure? Get real dude. My friends are all adults over 30 years of age, and aren't all hung up about what their parents or friends think about their sexuality. Their parents are done being shocked by whatever they are doing, and they don't need to shock their parents (which is something guys your age seem to need) nor placate them.

[Q Classic]

i hate it.

for no better reason than it snarled traffic the last two years where i was.

[Giancarlo]

Well I have no more comments to add. I made my point. If you want to continue thinking arbitrarily sikander. I will not, nor will I ever believe, can somebody change their sexual orientation. Never, never, never.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Fez
Well I have no more comments to add.

What about all of the comments you add right after this?

Originally posted by Fez
I made my point.

Only you can know what your point is, but I don't think you have effectively communicated it to me.

Originally posted by Fez
If you want to continue thinking arbitrarily sikander.

Do you want to turn this into a sentence, or just leave it dangling incomplete?

Originally posted by Fez
I will not, nor will I ever believe, can somebody change their sexual orientation. Never, never, never.

Hey I understand. You came out to your parents and now you have a big investment in showing them that you aren't wishy-washy. IIRC you are heading to college this year, which is great. There you can develop a peer group who will support you regardless of your orientation (just as I supported my friends). That will reduce the importance of your parents opinion in your life, which in turn will allow you a chance to develop your own ideas based on your own experiences, rather than dogmatically latching on to a position and defending it in the face of evidence to the contrary.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sikander


What about all of the comments you add right after this?

Whatever. I am going to respond to this mockery of a post.

Only you can know what your point is, but I don't think you have effectively communicated it to me.

You haven't made a point that I can counter.

Hey I understand. You came out to your parents and now you have a big investment in showing them that you aren't wishy-washy. IIRC you are heading to college this year, which is great. There you can develop a peer group who will support you regardless of your orientation (just as I supported my friends).

I hate to break this to you but I already have plenty of friends in my school. It is not like I don't already.

That will reduce the importance of your parents opinion in your life, which in turn will allow you a chance to develop your own ideas based on your own experiences, rather than dogmatically latching on to a position and defending it in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Oh please.. what ****ing evidence have you presented? YOu have presented nothing. You haven't provided a single link. You are nothing but trouble for this forum, and you have been such ever since you started discussing in this thread. People can't change their sexuality. It isn't some taste you can change like that. It just isn't possible. I am not changing my opinion on that. Call it stubborn, that is just the way I am.

And you think I can't come up with my own conclusions on things right now? OH please... get a grip on reality. You have presented no evidence, you have thrown a bunch of statements out there as if they were gold.. but you provide no backing. And then you have the GUTS TO ACTUALLY CLAIM I DO NOT BACK ANY OF MY STATEMENTS! Stop acting this way and grow up.

[Tiamat]

I see Fez is back

I'm going to go spend it with my brother in Dallas, he's gay and we are going to have dinner at his newly remodled condo with some friends over for drinks and maybe go to a piano bar later. A fun time for all. I love to go out with gay guys they are so much more uninhibited and always know how to have a good time! And oh what style!!

[Solly]

Gays just look gay.