The State of the Israeli Democracy 2003

[Eli]

Originally posted by elijah
Could someone explain how the majority of Jews in Israel, a people who, more than anyone else one would expect would realise the value of equality and the fallacy of persecution, are now in favour of unequal rights for the Arabs, and guilty of something of a cultural stereotype of that people.

Had the Arabs lived in Israel and participated in Israeli society like the Jews did/do in most of the countries in the diaspora, the problem wouldn't have existed.

The situation is slightly different as you know.

[Az]

Well, we share the blame here too.

[Whaleboy]

IIRC, the Jews lived in the area that is now Israel for centuries as a minority under a Muslim nation. They lived largely in peace and harmony (the two religions are actually very similar), and the Jews even fought alongside the Arabs in Northern Africa, the Iberian Peninsula (how the Portugese/Spanish/Goan (Indian) Jewish communities started from which I decend, and also in the Crusades against invading Western medieval states.

This would seem to show that there is no natural animosity between the Jews and Arabs, so why on Earth cant the Jews in Israel, who are now in power treating the Arabs as unequals, continuing this policy. After all we have suffered, surely we should have learned never to inflict such treatment on another people, another minority, another race/religion.

I think this is a sign of the importance to both sides, particularly Israel, to step back and view the big picture. The current situation is a dark chapter - a stain on the history of the Jewish people, and humanity in general.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Azazel

Interesting… what are keter plastics?

an Israeli plastics manufacturer. But I thought that bussiness was still going good. They're still shipping a lot to Antwerp, AFAIK.

I see. Thanks.

[Az]

Originally posted by elijah
IIRC, the Jews lived in the area that is now Israel for centuries as a minority under a Muslim nation. They lived largely in peace and harmony (the two religions are actually very similar), and the Jews even fought alongside the Arabs in Northern Africa, the Iberian Peninsula (how the Portugese/Spanish/Goan (Indian) Jewish communities started from which I decend, and also in the Crusades against invading Western medieval states.

That happened 500 years ago.

This would seem to show that there is no natural animosity between the Jews and Arabs, so why on Earth cant the Jews in Israel, who are now in power treating the Arabs as unequals, continuing this policy. After all we have suffered, surely we should have learned never to inflict such treatment on another people, another minority, another race/religion.

There is no natural animosity, generally. It is the national aspiration of two different cultures on a single plot of land.

I think this is a sign of the importance to both sides, particularly Israel, to step back and view the big picture. The current situation is a dark chapter - a stain on the history of the Jewish people, and humanity in general.

why is it a dark chapter in the history of the Jewish people? we finally have a state. We're not directly dependant on other people. In the history of jewish people, the last 55 years have been a great joy, a shimmering beacon of light in comparison to history. To palestinians? well, since their entire nation was born from ethnic tension some ~75 years ago, of course, the history of their nation was less than happy.

[Whaleboy]

The prophecy for a jewish state went something along the lines of:

"The Jews will return in PEACE" to [Israel[.

Id hardly describe the last 55 years as peaceful, or particularly prosperous considering the dependence on US economically and politically (remember the UN resolution in '67). Yes, a home-state is preferable to the holocaust (by a very long way), but to the world, to today, Israeli society is another apartheid. It is also hated by its neighbours, and has been the cause of much angst, and of course terrorism (both national in Israel and international... I doubt 9/11 would have happened if Israeli society was equal). That is a great shame. Lets get some things clear: Israel is a fundamentally good idea. Sharon et al are not.

[gsmoove23]

Azazel, I'm not sure it was worth the cost as the Jewish people have been drawn down into the muck and mire of oppression while the anxiety the Jewish people have of a repeat of the holocaust has in no way disappeared.

Meanwhile, in Germany a friend of mine blushes like a school girl when he sees a joke about Sharon, as if its a bad thing. The anxiety of holocaust has simply been removed form one region and brought to another.

[Az]

Originally posted by elijah
The prophecy for a jewish state went something along the lines of:

"The Jews will return in PEACE" to [Israel[.

Id hardly describe the last 55 years as peaceful, or particularly prosperous considering the dependence on US economically and politically

the dependance on the US is by choice. We benefit from this relationship, but we could've done without it.

Yes, a home-state is preferable to the holocaust (by a very long way), but to the world, to today, Israeli society is another apartheid.

noone but the extreme fringes claim Israel to be an apprtheid country. I am sure that the majority of apolytoners from all over the world would agree.

It is also hated by its neighbours,

I don't mind being hated by *******s. Who are our neighbours? two dictatorships, a puppet government, and a crumbling monarchy ( which learned to love us when we saved it's ass. )

and has been the cause of much angst,

To whom? the palestinian refugees? a problem that would've been solved eons ago if our neighbours would just taken care of them. It's not as if they're foreigners, the cultures are much closer than say, the cultures of the two cultures in belgium. In the same time, Israel has also accepted hundreds of thousands of refugees from the entire arab world, that have been forced to leave all of their posessions behind.

and of course terrorism (both national in Israel and international... I doubt 9/11 would have happened if Israeli society was equal).

I am sorry, but that's just tripping. Usama Bin Laden was Saudi, so was the majority of the hijackers. The main agenda of UBL is targetting the US involvement in the ME, and that would've been an issue even if Israel wouldn't exist at all.

[Eli]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Azazel, I'm not sure it was worth the cost as the Jewish people have been drawn down into the muck and mire of oppression while the anxiety the Jewish people have of a repeat of the holocaust has in no way disappeared.

Meanwhile, in Germany a friend of mine blushes like a school girl when he sees a joke about Sharon, as if its a bad thing. The anxiety of holocaust has simply been removed form one region and brought to another.

That's correct. In the last 50 years the place where the most jews were killed was Israel.

But still, at least now we can launch 200 nukes on the Hitler wannabes.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Eli


Had the Arabs lived in Israel and participated in Israeli society like the Jews did/do in most of the countries in the diaspora, the problem wouldn't have existed.

The situation is slightly different as you know.

Arabs have lived in Israel since its inception. As far as I can tell quite peacefully. In fact many more would have chosen to live there, but they were not given the chance and kicked out.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Eli


That's correct. In the last 50 years the place where the most jews were killed was Israel.

But still, at least now we can launch 200 nukes on the Hitler wannabes.

Will they ever be turned on yourselves? Don't misunderstand, I have never equated Israel with Nazi Germany to this day but if the situation keeps getting worse and the people of Israel become less and less patient without offering any reasonable plans for peace what will the result be. I know how popular the idea of transfer is in Israel today, what next?

[Az]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Azazel, I'm not sure it was worth the cost as the Jewish people have been drawn down into the muck and mire of oppression while the anxiety the Jewish people have of a repeat of the holocaust has in no way disappeared.

The anxiety of the repeat of the repeat of the holocaust is more or less, a non-issue. The issue here is the memory of the holocaust as a complete tragedy that we didn't avoid, couldn't avoid due to the fact that we were powerless, and ( on a half-subconscious level), that we didn't try or at least try hard enough to stop it.

To blame on the jewish people the entire suffering of the local population is laughable. The issue would've been solved 40-50 years ago, if the other countries would've just accepted Israel as a fact.

Meanwhile, in Germany a friend of mine blushes like a school girl when he sees a joke about Sharon, as if its a bad thing. The anxiety of holocaust has simply been removed form one region and brought to another.

Germany is a singular case. In france, for example, things are rather different. so they are in many other countries.

I love and respect the current people in Germany. they're not at fault for the acts of their ancestors, and the German people have suffered almost worst of them all in WWII.

[Whaleboy]

"noone but the extreme fringes claim Israel to be an apprtheid country"

Do the Arabs have the same rights as the Jews in Israel?

Do Arabs face greater hurdles than Jews for Israeli citizenship?

Do Arabs face constant discrimination in the form of stereotypes and other sociological phenomenon in Israel?

Are there places Arabs cant go in Israel, that non-Arabs can?

Is there official legistlature in Israel that limits the rights of Arabs?

I think you will find that Israel is highly reminiscent of apartheid South Africa, and should they not get a satisfactory state, it would be in the Palestinian interests to have their own Nelson Mandela.

[Whaleboy]

Israel as a state is not a bad state, not a bad society.

Israel today, with Sharon and his men in power, and their attitudes prominent, is a problem, one that I sincerely hope will be temporary, for the sake of my people, and all.

[Az]

Originally posted by elijah
"noone but the extreme fringes claim Israel to be an apprtheid country"

Do the Arabs have the same rights as the Jews in Israel?

Not by law. descrimination exists, on a personal basis ( decision making by officials, etc.). And this is wrong . Arabs have a cultural autonomy in Israel, that is they have arab schools. Those recieve less funding. BUT this is not discrimination IMO, since they can send their children into regular Israeli schools. I'd scrap the autonomy if I had my way.

Do Arabs face greater hurdles than Jews for Israeli citizenship?

Yes they do. According to the law of return, Jews can just come and take the citizenship, and arabs, obviously, cannot. This IS discriminating, but it's the entire point of the state of Israel, to accept Jews from the diaspora. other governments facing similar challenges did the same thing, e.g. the German diaspora in the territory of the former SU.

Do Arabs face constant discrimination in the form of stereotypes and other sociological phenomenon in Israel?

Yes. And this is saddening. But this has much to do with the conflict. You'll find that the Druze arabs, that are not muslim, and serve in the army, and fight in the IDF, are very much respected by Israelis. This has it's roots in the Independence War, a very interesting story, btw.

Are there places Arabs cant go in Israel, that non-Arabs can?

No.

Is there official legistlature in Israel that limits the rights of Arabs?

No, not that I know of.