The State of the Israeli Democracy 2003

[gsmoove23]

That's pretty much what i'm saying. Try to include as many settlements as possible while maintaining a reasonable border.

As for the Gaza strip, the settlements inside have to go, but there are some settlements on the north of it, adjacent to Israel proper, there is no reason to remove them.

We are in agreement accept for the fact that I would cut into the settlements more then you. There is no reason to remove northern Gazan settlements? Why, because you put them right up against the border of course so that later on you could say there is no reason to remove them. I have no problem if contiguous and equally valuable land can be offered but I highly doubt it. Most of the land contiguous with the West Bank and Gaza that hasn't been developed in some way is desert. Either someone is going to be removed from their land or the palestinians are going to be offered sand.

Well, then I guess you will support it when the settlers start building tens of thousands of illegal homes every year to accomodate themselves, just like the Arabs in E. Jerusalem, the Beduins in the Negev and some Arabs in the Galilee do.

These illegal homes are illegal because the Israeli government made them so, and placed limits on "natural growth". When they find so-called illegal homes they bulldoze them. I don't think the settlers should be much of a problem if the Israeli gov could stand up to Jews as easily as it could stand up to Palestinians.

The "worse" thing that can happen is removal of all the benefits for settlers, and it wont change much.

WTF, why is this the worst thing? The entitlements for settlers are pretty damn unpopular in Israel right now unless you're a settler, please. It wouldn't change a thing really? Because economic incentives never have anything to do with choosing where to live? Sure, I'll choose to live in a place very near to people who hate me, near to people who support my being shot while driving on the highway or by infiltrators, it doesn't help at all that the house is cheap. Nah.

The cost of these incentives is pretty high, plus the cost of added security needs so I don't think the price will be as high as you say. Plus the people who do not take the incentives to leave the settlements will be well aware that the invitable evacuation of the settlement will lower the value of their homes considerably, which will be evident in the final compensation offered to them.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Democratic Culture

- Over the last few years there has been a significant decline in the Jewish population's support of democratic norms on all levels: general support of the democratic system, support of specific democratic values, and support for equal rights for the Arab minority.

- The April 2003 survey returned a twenty year low in the percentage of support for the statement that democracy is the best form of government. Only 77% of the Jewish population thought it was.

- Of 32 countries for which there was data, Israel and Poland ranked lowest in the percentage of citizens (Arabs and Jews) who agreed with the statement that democracy is a desirable form of government.

- Israel (together with Mexico, India and Romania) is only one of 4 countries out of 31 in which the population is of the opinion that "strong leaders can be more useful to the state than all the deliberations and laws."

- As of 2003, more than half (53%) of the Jews in Israel state out loud that they are against full equality for the Arabs; 77% say there should be a Jewish majority on crucial political decisions; less than a third (31%) support having Arab political parties in the government; and the majority (57%) think that the Arabs should be encouraged to emigrate. On all issues there was a dramatic decline in support for democratic norms, compared to 1999.

- Not only is the Jewish population unsupportive of equality for Arab citizens, half of them do not acknowledge that equality doesn't exist in practice; 49% disagree that Israeli Arabs are discriminated against compared with Jews.

They seem to have forgotten their own history

[Eli]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


We are in agreement accept for the fact that I would cut into the settlements more then you. There is no reason to remove northern Gazan settlements? Why, because you put them right up against the border of course so that later on you could say there is no reason to remove them. I have no problem if contiguous and equally valuable land can be offered but I highly doubt it. Most of the land contiguous with the West Bank and Gaza that hasn't been developed in some way is desert. Either someone is going to be removed from their land or the palestinians are going to be offered sand.

Because as I said earlier, removing settlements is going to be almost impossible. That's why a formula needs to be found to remove as few of them as possible.
The settlements in the north of the Gaza strip pose no problems to Palestinian contiguity and therefore they should not be removed. The settlements in the middle of the Gaza strip are a major problem and they should be removed.

That sand they are going to be offered is their last refuge from the enormous over-population problem in the Gaza strip. It's one of the most densest areas in the world with ~3500 people living in every square kilometre, and that doesnt account for the land taken by settlements and IDF bases(so the number is close to 5000).
It is not Manhatten with it's high-rises, but a poverty stricken area filled with refugee camps.
Add to all this a 4% growth rate(50% population increase every decade) and they are screwed, a real time bomb.

Desert of grasslands, the Halutza sands south of Gaza(offered in Camp David by Barak in exchange for the settlement block in Judea&Samaria) are more helpful to the Pals than then hills of Judea.

These illegal homes are illegal because the Israeli government made them so, and placed limits on "natural growth". When they find so-called illegal homes they bulldoze them. I don't think the settlers should be much of a problem if the Israeli gov could stand up to Jews as easily as it could stand up to Palestinians.

What's the dispute? We both agree that limiting natural growth is not practical.

WTF, why is this the worst thing? The entitlements for settlers are pretty damn unpopular in Israel right now unless you're a settler, please. It wouldn't change a thing really? Because economic incentives never have anything to do with choosing where to live? Sure, I'll choose to live in a place very near to people who hate me, near to people who support my being shot while driving on the highway or by infiltrators, it doesn't help at all that the house is cheap. Nah.
The cost of these incentives is pretty high, plus the cost of added security needs so I don't think the price will be as high as you say. Plus the people who do not take the incentives to leave the settlements will be well aware that the invitable evacuation of the settlement will lower the value of their homes considerably, which will be evident in the final compensation offered to them.

It's the worst thing in the sense that it's the worst that can be done by the goverment to the settlers.

Many of the settlers live there because of the cheap prices but still lots and lots of them are there because of ideology and htat's why removing the incentives wont change a thing. The ideological settlers will stay.

[Whaleboy]

Dont care how you do it, just make it happen!

It is bickering and wasting of resources on fighting small problems like this that will and has hold back peace negotiations. Just look at Northern Ireland.

People should stop wasting time in these small egotistical concerns that have been blown out of proportion by all concerned and start tackling the real issues of making the two states work together constitutionally, and for the future, because it is, after all, the future that will judge this, and judge whether people have gone about this responsibly, or with inertia and unreasonability.

[Whaleboy]

by the way....

how does one reformat the text to show that it is a quote?

[Ned]

If I understand the Road Map, this is Olso II. It grants Palestine a state, removes the settlers and only then are the tough issues addressed, like the RoR. IIRC, this issue blew up Camp David and precipitated the current war.

It seems obvious to me that Israel should make no concessions until the hard issues are resolved.

[gsmoove23]

Uh, Halutza is a desert not a grassland and if you look it up on google you'll find that Sharon recently approved a number of settlements in the area.

As far as I can tell the northern Gazan settlements have a little more than 1000 people living in them. There is little reason to spare them even if they are bordering Israel. The largest Israeli settlement in Gaza is Neve Dekalim which is in the south close to the coast, with 2,280 people and this settlement will surely have to go http://www.fmep.org/database/gaza.html. Because a settlement is bordering Israel is not a reason in itself to allow it to survive, as the land is Palestinian to begin with.

What's the dispute? We both agree that limiting natural growth is not practical.

You misunderstood, Israel has been somewhat successful in limiting Palestinian growth, moreso in areas of higher priority like Jerusalem. As the Palestinians are much more populous and have a far higher birth rate then settlers so I doubt the settlers would prove as much of a problem. It is highly practical when it suits your political objectives.

It's the worst thing in the sense that it's the worst that can be done by the goverment to the settlers.

Many of the settlers live there because of the cheap prices but still lots and lots of them are there because of ideology and htat's why removing the incentives wont change a thing. The ideological settlers will stay.

Most settlers are there because of cheap prices. Most of the larger settlement blocks are suburban neighbourhoods where inhabitants can almost imagine themselves to be in normal neighbourhoods and completely forget about the illegality or legality of settlements. Whats interesting is that most of the truly ideological settlers that you speak of live in the more isolated settlements that you say have to go anyway. But I'm sure you know that because I assume you live in Israel.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Colon


What boycott?

I suspect the reason trade between both countries has dropped is because the lion share of that trade is in diamonds (more specifically between Antwerp and Tel Aviv), and the diamond business has been suffering in general. I could try to look up some figures if you want.

Besides, the Jewish community in Antwerp has a large stake in the diamond business, and I don't think they'd boycott your country either.

hi ,

if you would open your eyes in antwerp you would understand , .....

the diamond sector is very hard hit , many offices are now vacant in the pelicaan straat , .....

figures , here they are > http://www.nbb.be/belgostat/GlobalDi...reeview&Lang=E

and no , we dont yet have developed the tendency like the belgians to boycott one and another , ....

at least we dont have 405 000 unemployed people yet , .....

have a nice day

[Colon™]

hi ,

if you would open your eyes in antwerp you would understand , .....

the diamond sector is very hard hit , many offices are now vacant in the pelicaan straat , .....

Understand what? That the entire neighbourhood around the central station has been a slum for ages? I don't need you to know that and I don't have the slightest clue why you're bringing to that up boy.

figures , here they are > http://www.nbb.be/belgostat/GlobalDi...reeview&Lang=E

That's very good of you, have you found data about the composition of the Belgian/Israeli trade in there?

and no , we dont yet have developed the tendency like the belgians to boycott one and another , ....

We have also been been boycotting the US. Coke consumption has already dropped by several tenths of a percent, which crashed our stock market and caused a severe recession.

at least we dont have 405 000 unemployed people yet , .....

Want to start a discussion about the Belgian labour market? You could add half a million people using a broader definition of what constitutes an unemployed person. (older unemployed that have been written out, people on early retirement etc) Our employment rate is amongst the lowest in the industrialised world and in several regions in Wallonia there's an unemployment of about 25%.

I'm sure that's fascinating stuff for you.

Go troll someone else silly kid.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by elijah
by the way....

how does one reformat the text to show that it is a quote?

[ q ] at the beginning
[ /q ] at the end (remove the spaces between the brackets and the letter)

[Spiffor]

That's very good of you, have you found data about the composition of the Belgian/Israeli trade in there?

Yes, there is a statistic :

IMPORTS FROM ISRAEL - millions of Euros

Feb 2003 : 135.4
Jan 2003 : 139.0
Dec 2002 : 166.1
Nov 2002 : 195.5
Oct 2002 : 210.3
Sep 2002 : 167.5
Aug 2002 : 120.1
Jul 2002 : 155.5
Jun 2002 : 189.6
May 2002 : 244.8
Apr 2002 : 193.9
Mar 2002 : 173.0
Feb 2002 : 202.1

EXPORTS TO ISRAEL - millions of Euros

Feb 2003 : 200.7
Jan 2003 : 201.5
Dec 2002 : 226.8
Nov 2002 : 209.7
Oct 2002 : 291.4
Sep 2002 : 207.3
Aug 2002 : 189.1
Jul 2002 : 278.2
Jun 2002 : 286.3
May 2002 : 303.6
Apr 2002 : 267.9
Mar 2002 : 270.4
Feb 2002 : 288.0

I don't know what these stats prove however. It just shows trade between the two countries has generally reduced, but it seems Belgian imports have reduced a bit more significantly than Belgian exports.

[Colon™]

And in the same time period:

Belgian imports according to the Harmonised System

Natural or cultured pearls, precious or semi-precious stones, precious metals; imitation jewellery; coins

2002-02 1,175.7
....
2003-02 938.0

At least a chunk of that is from Israel and as I already said, the diamond business has been suffering in general.

[muxec]

People, democracy is not import/export amount. It's freedom. And as long as we have no freedom of faith we have no democracy

[Az]

Elijah: you have an unrealistic pov. " I don't care how you do it, just do it"?

[Eli]

Originally posted by muxec
People, democracy is not import/export amount. It's freedom. And as long as we have no freedom of faith we have no democracy

You have freedom of faith, you dont have freedom from religion.