Commitee of Strategic Planning

[Maniac]

Colossus GP is for free. I assume you're replying to binTravkin's post who says we could get merchants from currency. Those would cost workers, which means the advantage lies even more in the camp of the Kolos.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by binTravkin Harbour is the only commerce boosting facility and coupled with GL it's bonus becomes up to 3 times bigger.

This maths doesn't quite work as there are a limited number of trade routes available.

Well, I doubt there will be any intermediate solution as either we will overhelm them and capture everything (they are screwed even if we capture a single city) or we'll get stuck and will need to make peace.
I don't really believe that we could outright lose this war with this much technological advantage.

This is Civ4, not Alpha. Getting stuck is a frequent occurrence due to war unhappiness or simply being sat outside a city without enough units to take it. War is not something to be done by halves.

However, I see your point and probably we should build swordsmen instead.
There's just one thing - by building a lot of war materiell, we warn Bananas - if they even watch power graphs, they will realise quickly, what are we doing.
One or two swordsmen could be ok, but more is getting suspicious.

Swordsmen would certainly be useful. We should have a discussion later about how to hide them.
But perhaps also a Library in our capital?

Masonry - we have marble, sooner or later we will need it.
Fishing, Sailing - we are coastal and are going to build Colossus - we simply can't skip these.

True enough, but its not like we have a city needing those techs RIGHT NOW. I'm also still rabidly in favour of the Great Library as I believe other teams will prioritise Alphabet, increasing competition.

Heres a nice thought: Colossus/Great Library/National Epic +1 specialist for 30GPP a turn.

I understand you're proposing Maths -> Construction, the problem with those is, research will take a lot of time and they will be ready once we attack at best.
What they give:
Elephants - we have no ivory
Catapults - we have a unit for collateral damage, so only useful for bombardment.

Do not underestimate the power of bombardment!
As for the Ivory, don't the Bananas have it? If we sacrifice units to gain their larger cities and are then forced to peace due to lack of manpower, we can use that time to hook up ivory.
Where is their ivory anyway?

Maths is a gateway tech and gives us a whole load of useful stuff including currency, calendar and a possible route to Code of Laws and the rest.

In fact, if we're the civ which is least dependant on construction from all the civs and I don't see a reason to waste ~30-35 (currently its 16+23) turns in researching expensive techs which give us little at the moment they're done, while less expensive and more beneficial techs haven't been researched.

We're simply so far ahead of the time in tech, that b-lining for something even ahead doesn't make sense.
We should improve our research to make any real progress, which goes down to getting more commerce and more multipliers for it.

City Garrison 1 archers in a capital will fight evenly against our Chucks. Theres no such thing as too far ahead.

I don't think we should be too discouraged by the cost of the techs. They only look expensive because we're going so fast. As soon as our second and third cities have a couple of cottages and the capital has a library the number of turns will probably be half!

[binTravkin]

Let's assume those Kolos merchant GPPs will contribute to the second GP limit of 200. Let's assume we can then instaresearch a 1000 point tech with it. That means 2 merchant GPP = 10 beakers. Which is more than what a library can give us. Seems like the choice is obvious to me.

That's nice, only
- the colossus will cost one more citizen to rush.
- library bonus is relative, colossus - absolute, although I admit that with the lack of any hapiness boosting items, that isn't much of a difference.
- building a colossus doesn't necessarily exclude building library too

This maths doesn't quite work as there are a limited number of trade routes available.

Read 'up to'
The limited route thing would be void at least for Beijing once we conquer/settle two more cities, but I see your point, that's a project for later and I choose it over Great Library anytime (as bonuses are being relative not absolute).

This is Civ4, not Alpha. Getting stuck is a frequent occurrence due to war unhappiness or simply being sat outside a city without enough units to take it. War is not something to be done by halves.

I said either overhelm or get stuck by the first city meaning that if there is one city that can resist our strike, that is certainly the capital and also the first city for us to attack.
The other ones wont have neither time nor resources to build up a counterattack force, the best they can do is draw us in a long war where we would clearly win seeing our almost double MFG goods production compared to them and technical advantage.

True enough, but its not like we have a city needing those techs RIGHT NOW.

True but consider the following:
- we can get those techs quickly and they are less recognisable by enemy intelligence (score)
- these techs are a prerequisite to GL
- maths will take long and show almost no immediate benefit, the tech you're aiming for construction is even further away

I'm also still rabidly in favour of the Great Library as I believe other teams will prioritise Alphabet, increasing competition.

You should draw priorities, we cannot have all and everything.
It will be easy for us to build Library, but it's a future plan, right now we aint even aiming for Alphabet.
We should discuss building Library a bit later once we have Writing at least.
And again - Library doesn't exclude Lighthouse in any way as those are simply to far apart in time - we can start buildind the first in some 40 turns at earliest while the second could be available in as little as 15 turns.

Do not underestimate the power of bombardment!

I am not underestimating it, Im just saying that we have less use from cats than any other civ and we will arrive at them most probably too late to change anything.

As for the Ivory, don't the Bananas have it? If we sacrifice units to gain their larger cities and are then forced to peace due to lack of manpower, we can use that time to hook up ivory.
Where is their ivory anyway?

Im not 100% sure they have it (check that screenie), but if they do it's near the horses - deep down south, likely near their second city.
Anyways - even if we hook it up, it takes time, furthermore, to get an elephant anywhere near the Bananas second city would be forever, so I think we should be trying to gain momentum with our first stack of units, not to give any time.

Maths is a gateway tech and gives us a whole load of useful stuff including currency, calendar and a possible route to Code of Laws and the rest.

Yes, and between the mentioned I think Calendar is of the most importance to us as we lack any other means of happiness, but there are quite some plantations we could build to change it.
It alone would help our military more (by boosting production) than any other military tech in reach.

City Garrison 1 archers in a capital will fight evenly against our Chucks. Theres no such thing as too far ahead.

- I was saying far ahead of time in tech
- once 1-2 chukos are sacrificed, the archers are basically dead meat due to collateral damage.
At strenght of 2-1.5 they can't do a thing even if behind walls.
The most important strenght after the collateral damage is the first strikes, which basically means that even if you lose the unit, it will manage to do enough collateral damage to make the sacrifice worth it.

I don't think we should be too discouraged by the cost of the techs. They only look expensive because we're going so fast. As soon as our second and third cities have a couple of cottages and the capital has a library the number of turns will probably be half!

As it goes now, the second and third cities aint gonna be working cottages at least until the birth of GE, due to preparations of war and work on specials/mines.
It should, however, change once we get to Calendar.

[binTravkin]

I checked the ivory thing.
Looks like we will have to do without:

http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153977&perpage=30&pagenumber=3

[binTravkin]

Battle of Banana capital simulation:

The introduction:
- Bananas don't have hunting, takes at least 7 turns to research archery.
- Bananas don't have masonry
- Bananas have hooked up bronze and have bronze working
- Bananas have hooked up horse, but don't have horseback riding

The intelligence:
- we do not build any swordsmen prior to GE (except maybe in the last 2 turns), to not provoke Bananas switching their research.

The prelude:
-1 from GE - 2 swordsmen are built in Tassadar and 3rd city, we try to rebuke Banana claims we're preparing for war but unsucessfuly.
Bananas switch research to masonry (they don't know we're gonna have GE soon and don't believe we can research Machinery this early as it would take some 35 turns for us)
0 we pop machinery, Colossus is built, one more swordsman in our 4th city is done. Bananas panicking, but keeping masonry (3 more turns to go)
1 we output 2 more swordsmen and one chukonu from the colossus overflow at Beijing
4 Bananas finish an ax, start building walls, Banana garrison - 2 axes and warrior, starting research on hunting (2 turns to go)
5 we output 3 chukonus (chopped), start moving towards Bananas
6 Bananas finish walls by rushing, start on ax, finsh hunting, start on archery (3 turns)
9 bananas finish an ax by chopping, finish archery, start on archer, garrison - 4axes and warrior
15 our first stack of 4 chukonus, 3 swords and an ax arrives at Banana capital and meets the garrison of 4 axes 3 archers and a warrior
16 battle begins with Bananas having whipped another archer into existance.

The battle:
Bananas have following modifiers:
Culture: +80%
Walls: +50% (Im not sure walls + culture stack or the highest is chosen, IIRC the second option, but I choose to stack them for a minimal case scenario)
Fortified: +25%

None of the archers have any upgrade (barracks not built in haste), none of the axes either, warrior doesnt change anything.
Archer maximum strenght:
3 * (1 + .50 + .25 + .50 + .80) = 3 * 3.05 = 9.15
Ax maximum strenght:
5 * (1 + .25 + .50 + .80) = 5 * 2.55 = 12.75 (2.5 vs melee)


All chukonus have +10% strenght (IIRC the only first offensive promotion they can have)
All swords have +30% city attack
All axes have +50% vs melee and +20% city attack


Chukonu attacks archer:
6.6 vs 9.15
+1 first strike does ~10% damage
6.6 vs 8.235

Archer wins, chukonu does 10% collateral damage to others.

Next chukonu attacks archer:
6.6 vs 8.235
+1 first strike = ~10% damage
6.6 vs 7.32

Archer wins, chukonu does 10% collateral damage to others.

Next chukonu attacks archer:
6.6 vs 7.32
+1 first strike = ~10% damage
6.6 vs 6.405

Archer wins (worst case), chukonu does 10% collateral damage

Next chukonu attacks archer:
6.6 vs 6.405
+1 first strike = ~10% damage
6.6 vs 5.49

Chukonu wins, does 10% collateral

Units left for us:
3 swords, 1 ax
Units left for them:
4 axes, 2 archers, warrior (at 50% HP avg)

Swords dispose of 3 of the axes at odds:
7.8 vs 7.625

Ax loses to last ax.

Units left for us:
2 swords damaged, 1 chukonu damaged, 1 chukonu in reinforcements
Units left for them:
1 ax (at ~20% strenght), 2 archers at (20-40% strenght), warrior (at 50% strenght).

Assumed the damage levels are a bit higher for Bananas (due to total 50% from collateral)
Reinforcement chukonu slaughters the strongest archer, the second chukonu kills other archer, sword clears ax and other sword takes it.

Meanwhile some 3 more chukonus and 2-3 more swords have been produced and are en route to next target

This is a worst case scenario and Im not sure of the stacking of wall and culture bonus.
If it aint stacking the situation would favour us anyway as they would be skipping masonry, getting archery sooner and producing some 2 extra archers, while we would be fighting the archers at the odds of 6.885 after the first strike of the first chukonu and the second chukonu is even likely to win. Also, more collateral damage could happen without walls and with better odds for us.

In any case a task force of 6 chukonus, 3 swords and an ax should be enough to take the capital.
While under way (which would take some 10 turns) we can finish some 3-4 more chukonus and a few swords and direct those towards next target.

[binTravkin]

The culture bonus will also be lower - there's practically no way they can get to 80%, as it requires 500 culture points to do so and they're getting only 4 per turn. The second city is likely to have 40% bonus

[binTravkin]

Hehe, just read they dont stack, so:

Archers = 3 * (1 + .25 + .50 + .60) = 3 * 2.35 = 7.05
Axes = 5 * (1 + .25 + .60) = 5 * 1.85 = 9.25 (11.75 vs meelee)

Let's assume a more realistic scenario then:

Bananas have 4 axes, 6 archers, 1 warrior (alhough that implies production of one unit per each 2 turns, I think in desperation they could be capable of such a feat)

We have 6 chukonus, 3 swords and an ax

First chukonu then would have odds of:
6.6 vs 7.05 before first strike
6.6 vs 6.345 after

Next chukonu would have much better odds, due to collateral damage done.
In average case scenario, after the chukonu's strike there would be 1 archer (the first one) left, and 4 axes and a warrior, all received ~50% collateral damage while on our side one chukonu lost.
Axe vs axe would then look like:
9 vs 6
and
Sword vs axe
7.8 vs 6
which are both wins for us.

The city would then be left with an archer and warrior, with a probable addition of another archer next turn.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
That's nice, only
- the colossus will cost one more citizen to rush.

But the Kolos is worth much more. And we don't need to rush it per se. Besides the difference in cost isn't that big. Library; 90 hammers / 1.25 production modifier = 72. Kolos: 250 / 2.75 = 90 hammers. The Kolos costs only 25% longer to build but gives double as much benefit.

- library bonus is relative, colossus - absolute

Indeed, but I'm talking about what's best to build now, not in a 100 turns.

- building a colossus doesn't necessarily exclude building library too

Indeed. But I say that we should build the Kolos first, not a library.

Yes, and between the mentioned I think Calendar is of the most importance to us as we lack any other means of happiness

The Pyramids could also solve all our happiness problems.

SenNote: Maniac, don't tell me you're advocating a Builder's solution!

[Chaos Theory]

The Bananas' capital will only have 40% cultural defense, unless they somehow get it to 500 culture by the time they arrive.

Also, if with sufficient whipping and focused production, their cities are too tough to take, then we pillage and besiege them, utterly stalling their technological progress and eventually killing them with later-game units.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
The Bananas' capital will only have 40% cultural defense, unless they somehow get it to 500 culture by the time they arrive.

Also, if with sufficient whipping and focused production, their cities are too tough to take, then we pillage and besiege them, utterly stalling their technological progress and eventually killing them with later-game units.

Theoretically possible, but very expensive. We'll have to pay for unit upkeep and unit supply. While it would let us crush the bananas we would lose relative to the other teams. The shorter, the better.

[Chaos Theory]

Our CKNs will be very hardy in the field, so it won't take more than a few to lock down the bananas. They'll also contribute to our power graph, and be available to be recalled in case of an emergency (like an unscheduled war). Of course, it would be better to crush nanas immediately, but a siege is better than letting them build up and take revenge.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Maniac
SenNote: Maniac, don't tell me you're advocating a Builder's solution!

Of course I am. I like war in civ, but I also know one needs to have a good economic base to support all that military equipment.

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by Maniac


Of course I am. I like war in civ, but I also know one needs to have a good economic base to support all that military equipment.

lol, QFT

But I can't relly see us finishing the Pyramids unless we use the GE, and popping machinery with him is waay too tempting.



I do agree to building both collosus and GL in our cap as soon as our GE is done, to throw the nanas off balance. We should also behave friendly towards them, even teling them our 'plan' of popping the GL after we finish the collosus (but only two to three turns before... as before that we would still be 'polling' it)

[binTravkin]

Indeed. But I say that we should build the Kolos first, not a library.

I made a sketch of production plan for the next 26 turns.
With some chopping I saw us able to finish:
Granary (current)
Settler (current)
Library
Settler
Barracks
Colossus

in that time.

I will publish the plan later, have to check the maths and see if it can be optimized even more.

Indeed. But I say that we should build the Kolos first, not a library.

I proposed a trick to finish Colossus right in the next turn after GE birth, so that Bananas think we used great person for it (in case we actually use the guy for Machinery), that's why I put it down the schedule.

Also - our intelligence suggests noone is having Metal Casting yet, and even if they did, they'd still need to spend some turns on forge, and even after that, there's only one other industrious civ which cannot compete with us in wonder building as of now.
This makes us able to delay Colossus even if we lose turns of it's production.

Another reason not to rush it is not to spoil the odds of GE appearing as we only have one city able to build Colossus now and are not likely to have another capable of such undertaking in the next 26 turns.

[binTravkin]

Indeed, but I'm talking about what's best to build now, not in a 100 turns.

This, btw is a good point against Colossus, as in 100 or 50 turns, when we get that merchant born, it's beakers will be at least twice less worth than now - our 'normal' beaker output will be much bigger.