Commitee of Strategic Planning

[PJayTycy]

I also did a quick future-plan test, and our iron-hookup seems to be our current bottle-neck.

We can't build any swordsman or chokonu before iron is connected. Iron hookup will happen in 30 turns *at best*, while our GE will appear in 26 turns. We could build an archer or axe to upgrade, but we'll have more than enough financial trouble in the war as it is, so I wouldn't do it.

Here is my (partial) sketch, focussed on Being and our third city. Feel free to insert research and Tassagrad items.

*** first +/- 10 turns : upto building third city ***


*worker*
pasture : 3 turns
( road : 3 turns => DO NOT BUiLD )
walking to other pasture : 4 turns
pasture cows : 5 turns
--------------------------------------
12 turns  (15 turns if we build road on current pasture)


*being*
settler while unhappy : 1 turn
granary "normal" : 2(base)+4(mine)+2(eng)+2(forge) = +10 hammers / turn : 1 turn (23/60 -> 33/60)
granary whip with 1 pop : 1 turn
continue settler while unhappy : 5 turns
(build worker while unhappy : 5 more turns, + 1 turn while happy again)
walk settler to location : 2 turns
settle down : 1 turn
------------------------------------------------
11 turns till settle down, 14 turns till 2nd worker built


*Tassagrad*
barracks : currently 14/60 and 15/22
3 turns with only copper resource : +3*6=18 => 32/60 and 18/22
2 turns with only cows resource : +2*4=8 => 40/60 and 24/22 --> growth
working copper and cows : +9/turn => 3 turns left
finish axeman : 1 turn
-----------------------------------------------------------
9 turns


*research*
writing : 5 turns
fishing : 3 turns
sailing : 7(6) turns
-----------------------------------------------------
15 (14) turns


*** next +/- 16 turns : upto finishing GE at turn 26 ***

*iron city*
(starting after turn 11)
12: unpastured cows : 1 turn : +2 food / +2 hammers => 2/22 and 2/30
13: pastured cows : 7 turns : +3 food / +4 hammers => 23/22 and 30/30 => monolith complete + pop growth
20: wait for border expansion : 10 turns
30: build mine : 5 turns
---------------------------------------------------
35 turns without chopping

chopping won't matter that much however...: after finishing pasture, 
a chop will take 1 turn to move + 4 turns to chop => turn 18 instead of 
turn 20 for monolith finish. These 2 turns are not worth it imo.
Also, the 2nd worker from being will be at the place only at turn 14+2,
so he can only shave off 1 more turn if they both cooperate; bringing the
time for building the monolith to turn 17 at best. If they then both work
together on the mine, we can shave off 2 more turns, so we can hook up
iron in 30 turns at best (if we devote a lot of our resources towards it)


*being*
(starting after turn 14)
15: build galley (whip immediately with 2 pop)
16: build ?
? : start collossus (whip at turn 26, when our GE is born; we might have to use prevent growth here, except if Maniac comes up with another solution)


*tassagrad*
(starting after turn 9)
10 : build some more military (we didn't build those barracks for nothing)

Does this correspond +/- with your plan bt ?

[binTravkin]

Well, mine was not so detailed in worker turns, and I also didn't include galley in Beijing for now - I think some other items are more needed.

The bottleneck you mention - I think we could solve it.

*worker*
pasture : 3 turns
( road : 3 turns => DO NOT BUiLD )
walking to other pasture : 4 turns
pasture cows : 5 turns

What I see from map, walking to pasture would constitute from:
1.into Tassagrad, southwest the road, onto hill northwest
2.onto wine, into forest
3.into pasture, start work.

Effectively 2 turns of movement as in the 3rd turn work will start.
Why do you think 4 turns are needed?

If my walk analysis is correct, that breaks down to 3 + 2 + 5 = 10 turns of worker job and

7 (finish settler) + 3 (walk) = 10 turns for settling the city

IF we then make a chop in 4 turns, expansion comes 25-27 turns from now

IF we dont make pasture at first but instead stop the worker one turn short of walking, we chop too soon.

So why dont we make it:
Finish current pasture: 3
Move onto hill: 1
Road hill: 2
Move into wine, road wine: 2 (at the same time settler finishes)
Move into forested hill: 1
Chop: 3
(sub total : 12 turns)

City will be settled exactly one turn before chop.
Afterwards we dont have to wait for expansion, but use 5 turns to pasture, 4 turns to road it up to iron site, expansion follows and we use 4 turns to mine and road the site (with two workers now).
Total: 12 + 4 + 4 + 5 = 25 turns at a cost of temporarily decreased production at the new city and immediately increased after pop growth + border expansion.

granary "normal" : 2(base)+4(mine)+2(eng)+2(forge) = +10 hammers / turn : 1 turn (23/60 -> 33/60)

We should avoid passing 29/30, to have 2 bundles

[Impaler[WrG]]

Acording to the last turn report the settler is 2 turns form completion so the Iron City can be founded in 5 turns, it looks like your planning to switch away to complete the Granary? The settler should be finished ASAP to get that city (Iron Monkey) founded, that will give us Iron in roughly 25 turns to coincide with the GE.

[binTravkin]

The info about settler in the turn report is about how production should be arranged, in other words, after 2 turns we switch to granary, whip and then back to settler.

[Impaler[WrG]]

OK but still WHY are we prioritizing a Granary over the Settler when we know we need to get that city founded ASAP? Dose it have something to do with Whipping efficiency? Is it possible to whip the Settler instead of the Granary? Also completing the Granary then switching back to settler wont achive anything as all the food will be going to the Settler and none into the Food Box which is ware the Granary dose its work. Lets keep building the Settler, whip it as soon as its whipable and send any overflow into the Granary rather then the other way around.

[-SafaN-]

it has to do with whipping as much as possible, as soon as the unhappy citizen disappears, u can whip, then u wait 10 turns again.

[PJayTycy]

Impaler: we can whip the settler:

-> whip settler now => will increase unhappy-period to 12 turns
-> in those 12 turns, build a worker first (+/-6 turns), preventing growth and using unhappy-people-don't-need-food "tactic/bug/feature"
-> then switch back to granary, do not whip it.

While building the granary, we already have 1 unhappy citizen and we'll probably grow a bit too, giving us 2 unhappy citizens. I'm not really sure anymore if this is actually a problem or not in Civ4.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Lets look at the cost benifit of when and how to whip, Ive never been able to open the save turns so I'm fuzzy on all of the numbers here.

Beiging currently has population of 4, 2 floodplain Village workers, one rice and one Enginer. Production is 5 Hammers and 6 net Food. What is the food box and production Box at adsactly? Whipping anger will dispate in 2 turns.

What do we get if we whip right now?
What about Whipping in 2 turns, is it more or less efficient?
Do we have to temporarily give up any of the currently worked plots or the Engineer due to population loss? I'd rather avoid that due to the high value of all of these tiles.

I know theirs a lot of Pro-Granary people out their but I cant see any benifit if the production imediatly following the Granary is a worker which seems to be the plan. We should finish all the Food-Buildable units before the Granary to maximize our efficiency. Unless theirs a possibility of growing another population for a double whipping we should hold off on the Granary for now.

[PJayTycy]

This is the current screenshot of Being:

Beiging currently has population of 4, 2 floodplain Village workers, one rice and one Enginer.

population is 5, we have one not-working unhappy citizen too.

Production is 5 Hammers and 6 net Food. What is the food box and production Box at adsactly? Whipping anger will dispate in 2 turns.

production = 2 (base) + 2 (eng) + 1 (forge) = 5 hammers
food = 13 - 8 = 5 food = 5 hammers when building a food-consuming item (no forge bonus here)
food = 13 - 10 = 3 food when building something else
I don't know about the foodbox, as it's set to 0 while building a settler.
Production box is at 40/60, with +10/turn

What do we get if we whip right now?

settler whipping for 2 pop, which means we are left with 3 citizens and no unhappy people anymore. We have to give up one of rice-worker, floodplain-worker or engineer.

What about Whipping in 2 turns, is it more or less efficient?

Unhappiness will be vanished and we might wait till it costs only one pop to whip. Being will have 4 happy citizens and no unhappy ones (working rice + 2 floodplains + engineer)

Do we have to temporarily give up any of the currently worked plots or the Engineer due to population loss? I'd rather avoid that due to the high value of all of these tiles.

see above, it's different in the 2 scenarios.

I know theirs a lot of Pro-Granary people out their but I cant see any benifit if the production imediatly following the Granary is a worker which seems to be the plan. We should finish all the Food-Buildable units before the Granary to maximize our efficiency. Unless theirs a possibility of growing another population for a double whipping we should hold off on the Granary for now.

I don't know how the granary works exactly, but we have already started it and it would be stupid to waste the 23 hammers already invested in it due to decay.

[binTravkin]

Granary stores half of the previous foodbox.
E.g. you need 30 food to go 5->6, once you grow, your foodbox will look like 15(+overflow)/32

I don't know about the foodbox, as it's set to 0 while building a settler.

No. It's only stopped.

[Chaos Theory]

Remember, the granary only stored half of the food accumulated while it exists. Normally this means half the accumulated food box, but when it's created, this can mean less. I see Impaler's point.

[Maniac]

I agree with Impaler.

How about completing a Settler and Worker the normal way and then whip the granary? Then we can work a four hammer mine (actually five due to forge) in the meanwhile.

Decay for building is a large number. 100 turns or so I believe. So that's not an issue I think.

Our food box is empty now, so not switching to the granary now, would mean we could get its maximal benefit after its whipping later.

[binTravkin]

For buildings decay is 50 turns.


A viable option is whipping settler as soon as happiness is back, then, while growing, produce granary and once maximum affordable population reached, produce worker, then whip worker and finish granary

[binTravkin]

Though I still think, our second city is able to produce 2 workers before GE..

[Maniac]

But then Tassagrad can't grow to make maximal use of the happiness limit.