Commitee of Strategic Planning

[binTravkin]

1.Workers can be built using building rush overflows and chops (if we build two there, the first should chop the second in)
2.Tassagrad wont be using the hapiness limit for a while anyway - if we work pasture and mine, it will lack the food necessary to grow quickly enough, while providing 9 hammers.

[Maniac]

Tassagrad not growing fast seems an extra reason not to poprush or build workers there ATM IMO.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Tassagrad may not have a high Food output but when the pasture is done its combined Food+Hammer output will be comparable to Beiging and it could indeed build a worker in a reasonable amount of time. But this will slow down military production in the city and I'd like to see us have an ax-man to guard IronMonkey (3rd City) from roving barbarians. The next best tile for Tassagrad is the Forest Silk which is rather modest, we could chop that forest and cottage the spot for incressed commerce, the Chop could go towards a Forge which would more then compensate for the lost forest Hammers, later we would plow the cottage under for a Plantation.

A viable option is whipping settler as soon as happiness is back, then, while growing, produce granary and once maximum affordable population reached, produce worker, then whip worker and finish granary

How dose this senario sound, double whip the Settler now or very soon to completion and temporarily removing the Enginer, puting the overflow into a Worker. Then switch back to the Granary so food can flow into the Food Box, using our 3 Food Richest tiles we can put 7 food a turn in the Box and regrow to 4 pop very rapidly ~4 turns I think. When we return to 4 pop we re-instate the Engineer and switch production back to the Worker to finish it off at our current rate of 10 total production a turn which depending on the amount of overflow would be 5-6 additonal turns at that rate.

The main downside is we slow down GE production but only for a few turns, this might even be advantageus as it provides us more time to prepare in other areas.

[binTravkin]

So, I got into the numbers.

Provided
- we don't make a single whip at Tassagrad
- we find time to build a plains hill mine (which is the weak point)
- we assist the build of 2nd worker with a chop

We can build the following things:
Finish Barracks
2 Workers
2 Axes
Forge

Granary is not needed for now, if we dont whip.

Details are in the attached spreadsheet - you can use it to make your own plan - most values are formula-based and it starts at this endturn/start of next turn and ends at GE birth (2 extra turns provided after that to see future possibilities).

EDIT:
- I dont like delaying GE
- Beijing plan coming up (maybe we can squeeze more out of it)
- fixed an error in spreadsheet

[binTravkin]

Here's a production plan for Beijing.
It has one problem - it's exactly 1 turn short of making Colossus right the turn after GE is popped.
If we accept this one, it could be beneficial to delay GE for a single turn (see the situation where we're at 2 pop).

Turn	Building	Production	Food	Growth	Pop	Angry	Special
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1840	Settler		40(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	1
25	Settler		53(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0	whip 2 pop
24	Granary		23(+22*)/60	+4	0/26(7)	3	9
23	Granary		45(+5)/60	+4	4/26(6)	3	8
22	Granary		50(+5)/60	+4	8/26(5)	3	7
21	Granary		55(+5)/60	+4	12/26(4)3	6
20	Library		0(+5)/90	+4	16/26(3)3	5	Granary done
19	Library		5(+5)/90	+4	20/26(2)3	4
18	Library		10(+5)/90	+4	24/26(1)3	3
17	Library		15(+5)/90	+5	15/28(3)4	2
16	Library		20(+5)/90	+5	20/28(2)4	1
15	Library		25(+5)/90	+5	25/28(1)4	0	Whip 2 pop
*end	Library		90(+30)/90	+3	25/24(0)2	10	for 3 bundles
14	Colossus	0(+77)/250	+4	16/26(3)3	9
13	Colossus	77(+11)/250	+4	20/26(2)3	8
12	Colossus	88(+11)/250	+4	24/26(1)3	7
11	Colossus	99(+11)/250	+5	15/28(3)4	6
10	Colossus	101(+11)/250	+5	20/28(2)4	5
9	Colossus	121(+11)/250	+5	25/28(1)4	4
8	Colossus	132(+11)/250	+3	18/30(1)5	3	one unhappy
*switch	Settler		0(+10)/100	0	18/30(-)5	2
7	Settler		10(+10)/100	0	18/30(-)5	1
6	Settler		20(+10)/100	0	18/30(-)5	0
5	Settler		30(+10)/100	0	18/30(-)5	0	whip
4	Colossus	132(+66)/250	+4	18/26(2)3	9
3	Colossus	198(+11)/250	+4	22/26(1)3	8
2	Colossus	209(+11)/250	+5	13/28(3)4	7
1	Colossus	220(+11)/250	+5	18/28(2)4	6
0	Colossus	231(+11)/250	+5	23/28(1)4	5
-1	Colossus	242(+11)/250	+3	15/30(5)5	5	one unhappy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Maniac]

I don't how whipping the settler now would be beneficial. Whipping is especially good because you can turn surplus food into production instead of unhappiness. But while we're producing a settler, we do not suffer unhappiness problems. We should only whip to solve/prevent unhappiness problems.

[binTravkin]

I don't how whipping the settler now would be beneficial. Whipping is especially good because you can turn surplus food into production instead of unhappiness. But while we're producing a settler, we do not suffer unhappiness problems. We should only whip to solve/prevent unhappiness problems.

Have you compared it to other situations then?

Whipping settler:
+third city up fast
+can grow afterwards
+surplus for Granary (faster completion)

-losing 3 production (-2 food + 4hammers * 1.25 = 3) towards settler

Whipping Granary
+losing 1 less production towards settler
+gaining a ~10h more surplus
-losing 2 production (from unhappy citizen) towards settler
-stalling growth (cant regrow to 5) and making granary useless for a long time

Whipping nothing
-stalling our production for more than 5 turns (while settler finishes + lost surplus from whip)


I can make similar plans for both scenarios, but to me it's obvious they're worse.

[binTravkin]

Actually I take my words back
I found an error in the first plan, according to Blake overflow is modified by a complicated formula and is not linear.

[Maniac]

If you waited one more turn with whipping, couldn't we get two bundles for only one pop and also complete the granary almost immediately afterwards?

Anyway, did some thinking. Currently our food surplus is at a rate of one extra pop per ten turns. Working the mine gives us 5 hammers. *10 = 50 hammers for ten turns. By whipping a pop we gain 30 hammers with one bundle and 60 hammers with two bundles, plus unhappiness for 10 turns. So it seems currently whipping is only beneficial if we can get two bundles for one pop. This may change after the granary is completed, depending on how fast we can regain a pop.

[N35t0r]

So actually whipping the granary could be a good idea, especially since it's easier to fill with a smaller food box...

[binTravkin]

Waiting one turn before whipping turned out to be much worse choice, according to this.
Problem is the difference in whips - in the scenario I proposed before we can have 3 whips during the next 25 turns, in this we can only have two, which bites our leg pretty hard.

EDIT: Updated with a third whip at the very end of library production. Not much better tho..

Turn	Building	Production	Food	Growth	Pop	Angry	Special
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1840	Settler		40(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	1
25	Settler		53(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0	whip 1 pop
24	Settler		66(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0
*whip	Settler		100(+36)/100	0	0/28(-)	4	10	
23	Granary		23(+41)/60	+5	0/28(6)	4	9
22	Library		0(+9)/90	+5	5/28(5)	4	8	Granary done
21	Library		9(+5)/90	+5	10/28(4)4	7
20	Library		14(+5)/90	+5	15/28(3)4	6
19	Library		19(+5)/90	+5	20/28(2)4	5
18	Library		24(+5)/90	+5	25/28(1)4	4
17	Library		29(+5)/90	+3	16/30(5)5	3	1 unhappy
*switch	Settler		0(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5
16	Settler		10(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5	2
15	Settler		20(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5	1
14	Settler		30(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5	0	whip 2 pop
*whip	Settler		100(+30)/100	0	16/26(-)3	10
13	Library		29(+35)/100	+4	16/26(3)3	9
12	Library		64(+5)/100	+4	20/26(2)3	8
11	Library		69(+5)/100	+4	24/26(1)3	7
10	Library		74(+5)/100	+5	15/28(3)4	6
9	Library		79(+5)/100	+5	20/28(2)4	5
8	Library		84(+5)/100	+5	25/28(1)4	4
7	Library		89(+5)/100	+3	16/30(5)5	3	1 unhappy
6	Library		89(+5)/100	+3	19/30(4)5	2
5	Library		94(+5)/100	+3	22/30(3)5	1
4	Library		99(+10)/100	+3	25/30(2)5	0
*whip	Library		100(+39)/100	+5	25/28(1)4	
3	Colossus	0(+107)/250	+3	17/30(5)5	10	1 unhappy
2	Colossus	107(+22)/250	+3	20/30(4)5	9	
1	Colossus	129(+22)/250	+3	23/30(3)5	8	
0	Colossus	151(+22)/250	+3	26/30(2)5	7
-1	Colossus	173(+22)/250	+3	29/30(1)5	6	
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Impaler[WrG]]

getting the third city up fast is a BIG deal, not only for the jump on its long term growth but for the conection of Iron a critical resorce. If Maniac is right that we can get 2 bundles for one pop then I'd definatly go for that, what dose the production box need to be at for us to do that, when will that oportunity pass?

Should we start a poll on this issue?

Also why do you have a 4th Settler in your plan, its a second Worker that we will be needing or are you proposing that it be done at Tassagrad? Also you have the cost of library at 100 durring a portion of that data table

[binTravkin]

what dose the production box need to be at for us to do that, when will that oportunity pass?

between 62/100 and 69/100
Delaying for one turn would make it 66/100

Should we start a poll on this issue?

Not until we haven't done the maths and cleared which path is the best (at which point poll could become unnecessary).

Also why do you have a 4th Settler in your plan, its a second Worker that we will be needing or are you proposing that it be done at Tassagrad?

Settler was Maniac's proposal as he thinks we should increase our production potential.
However I feel that if we indeed take the Bananas, our production could be good enough.
I'll see what happens if I put worker there instead.

Also you have the cost of library at 100 durring a portion of that data table

Oops, fixing that now.

[binTravkin]

This is a corrected plan with Maniac's delay proposal in.

Important thing to note is that we can whip Colossus in -2 for completion in -3 which is 3 turns after birth of GE (unless we delay it).

Turn	Building	Production	Food	Growth	Pop	Angry	Special
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1840	Settler		40(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	1
25	Settler		53(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0	whip 1 pop
24	Settler		66(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0
*whip	Settler		100(+36)/100	0	0/28(-)	4	10	
23	Granary		23(+41)/60	+5	0/28(6)	4	9
22	Library		0(+9)/90	+5	5/28(5)	4	8	Granary done
21	Library		9(+5)/90	+5	10/28(4)4	7
20	Library		14(+5)/90	+5	15/28(3)4	6
19	Library		19(+5)/90	+5	20/28(2)4	5
18	Library		24(+5)/90	+5	25/28(1)4	4
17	Library		29(+5)/90	+3	16/30(5)5	3	1 unhappy
*switch	Settler		0(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5
16	Settler		10(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5	2
15	Settler		20(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5	1
14	Settler		30(+10)/100	0	16/30(-)5	0	whip 2 pop
*whip	Settler		100(+30)/100	0	16/26(-)3	10
13	Library		29(+35)/90	+4	16/26(3)3	9
12	Library		64(+5)/90	+4	20/26(2)3	8
11	Library		69(+5)/90	+4	24/26(1)3	7
10	Library		74(+5)/90	+5	15/28(3)4	6
9	Library		79(+5)/90	+5	20/28(2)4	5
8	Library		84(+5)/90	+5	25/28(1)4	4
7	Library		89(+5)/90	+3	16/30(5)5	3	1 unhappy
6	Colossus	0(+19)/250	+3	19/30(4)5	2
5	Colossus	19(+11)/250	+3	22/30(3)5	1
4	Colossus	30(+22)/250	+3	25/30(2)5	0
3	Colossus	52(+22)/250	+3	28/30(1)5	0
2	Colossus	74(+22)/250	+1	16/32(16)6	0	1 unhappy
1	Colossus	96(+22)/250	+1	17/32(15)6	0
0	Colossus	118(+22)/250	+1	18/32(14)6	0
-1	Colossus	140(+22)/250	+1	19/32(14)6	0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plan with worker instead of settler coming up.

[binTravkin]

Turn	Building	Production	Food	Growth	Pop	Angry	Special
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1840	Settler		40(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	1
25	Settler		53(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0	whip 1 pop
24	Settler		66(+13)/100	0	0/30(-)	5	0
*whip	Settler		100(+36)/100	0	0/28(-)	4	10	
23	Granary		23(+41)/60	+5	0/28(6)	4	9
22	Library		0(+9)/90	+5	5/28(5)	4	8	Granary done
21	Library		9(+5)/90	+5	10/28(4)4	7
20	Library		14(+5)/90	+5	15/28(3)4	6
19	Library		19(+5)/90	+5	20/28(2)4	5
18	Library		24(+5)/90	+5	25/28(1)4	4
17	Library		29(+5)/90	+3	16/30(5)5	3	1 unhappy
*switch	Worker		0(+10)/80	0	16/30(-)5
16	Worker		10(+10)/80	0	16/30(-)5	2
15	Worker		20(+10)/80	0	16/30(-)5	1
14	Worker		30(+13)/80	0	16/30(-)5	0
13	Worker		43(+13)/80	0	16/30(-)5	0
*whip	Worker		80(+33)/80	0	16/28(-)4	10	
12	Library		29(+38)/90	+5	16/28(3)4	9
11	Library		67(+5)/90	+5	21/28(2)4	8
10	Library		72(+5)/90	+5	26/28(1)4	7
9	Library		77(+5)/90	+3	17/30(5)5	6	1 unhappy
8	Library		82(+5)/90	+3	20/30(4)5	5
7	Library		87(+5)/90	+3	23/30(3)5	4
6	Colossus	0(+15)/250	+3	26/30(2)5	3	Lib done
5	Colossus	15(+11)/250	+3	29/30(1)5	2
4	Colossus	26(+11)/250	+1	17/32(15)6	1	2 unhappy
3	Colossus	37(+22)/250	+1	18/32(14)6	0	1 unhappy
2	Colossus	59(+22)/250	+1	19/32(13)6	0
1	Colossus	81(+22)/250	+1	20/32(12)6	0
0	Colossus	103(+22)/250	+1	21/32(11)6	0
-1	Colossus	125(+22)/250	+1	22/32(10)6	0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is with worker instead of settler and worker being whipped so that it provides 2 bundles for one pop.

I start to see a pattern here - the more we delay whipping the more chance we wont be able to use the third whip in this 25 turn timeframe.
Also, Library gets delayed too, which aint good by any measure