Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
But what do you think of what I wrote above about Isabella marrying the Portuguese heir instead of the Argonese heir? Wouldn't that have changed everything?

Yeah! Portugal would rule Spain!

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
okay, okay!

But what do you think of what I wrote above about Isabella marrying the Portuguese heir instead of the Argonese heir? Wouldn't that have changed everything?

It would be old news, wouldn't it?
I mean, both houses had many mariages. Remember D. Beatriz, daughter of D. Fernando, the last King of Portugal's first dinasty.
Back then, both crowns would be joined under the same King, and Portuguese nobleman didn't accepted it. Do you believe
Castille would have accepted it the other way arround?

I recall some stories regarding the "accidental death" of a heir of the Portuguese Crown that would also receive the crown of Castille.

I can't recall who was that King, and am not even sure if it is true history or legend but i'll try to check it out.

Don't take this the wrong way, but, here in Portugal we have a saying: "From Spain, no good wind, nor good mariage".
(As you may notice after reading the next post, I edited the saying after Jay Kay's correction - Thanks Jay Kay )

I think the reason is the number of mariages between the Royal Houses of Portugal and Spain that almost caused the loss of Portuguese Independence. If that saying survived history, maybe is because no-one, particularly, the Portuguese, in those days, were very keen on the joining of the Crowns.

[JayKay]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns

Don't take this the wrong way, but, here in Portugal we have a saying: "From Spain, no good wing, nor good mariage".

I think is wind not wing!
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Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[siredgar]

Portugal is not a part of Spain.

Civilization is a lot about "what if", in my opinion. What if the Portuguese fought off the Spanish and maintained independence? Their empire would have probably flourished for a long time.

It's appalling to say that the Portuguese should be included as a part of Spain, when there is clearly a distinct culture and history. This is especially insulting when it's the Spanish that really propelled the downfall of the Portuguese Empire.

I propose Alfonso as the great leader of Portugal because he had a long reign of expansion and recognition and established the line. I also nominate Prince Henry the Navigator as one of the leaders because his explorations helped begin the colonization of Africa, the Madeiras Islands, and the Azores.

Portugal's golden age really started during the reign of John I (1385-1433) who began the long-lasting alliance with Britain and commenced the most glorious period in the nation's history. He also fathered Prince Henry the Navigator.

Portugal is definitely commercial and expansionist.

[JayKay]

Re: Portugal is not a part of Spain.

Originally posted by siredgar
Civilization is a lot about "what if", in my opinion. What if the Portuguese fought off the Spanish and maintained independence? Their empire would have probably flourished for a long time.

It's appalling to say that the Portuguese should be included as a part of Spain, when there is clearly a distinct culture and history. This is especially insulting when it's the Spanish that really propelled the downfall of the Portuguese Empire.

I propose Alfonso as the great leader of Portugal because he had a long reign of expansion and recognition and established the line. I also nominate Prince Henry the Navigator as one of the leaders because his explorations helped begin the colonization of Africa, the Madeiras Islands, and the Azores.

Portugal's golden age really started during the reign of John I (1385-1433) who began the long-lasting alliance with Britain and commenced the most glorious period in the nation's history. He also fathered Prince Henry the Navigator.

Hurray...finally someone that understands a bit of Portugal and their importance and independence from Spain from every aspect!

Originally posted by siredgar Portugal is definitely commercial and expansionist.

Yeah, i think we all agree with those abilities! They're definitely the best choices for the Portuguese Civ!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Ecowiz Returns]

I need some help ending Portuguese History.

Can someone help filling these gaps.

After Vasco da Gama's Expedition...

... Portuguese navigators arrive to Japan and introduce the rifle to the Japonese. So... ultimately the Portuguese are to be blamed for Pearl Herbour

... Portuguese convince China to give them Macau as a payment to get rid of the Pirates in the Sea of China. Turns out many of those Pirates were acting with the knowledge and goodwill of the Portuguese rulers, in those territories.

...Luís Vaz de Camões writes "Os Lusiadas", one of the few
Epic Poems in History.

... D. Sebastião goes to Alcacer Quibir in seach for glory and dies without a direct heir to the Portuguese Thrown.

... Phillip II of Spain becomes Phillip I of Portugal. Portuguese gold is used to finance the "Invencivel Armada".

... During this time, Angra do Heroismo never surrendered to the Spaniards (please confirm this).

... Piracy in the Indic Ocean, by the English, Dutch and French make trade with India almost impossible. Brasilian gold and sugar become the prime sources of income of the Portuguese Empire.

... D. João, the Duque of Bragança, leads a revolt against Phillip III of Portugal, IV of Spain. Phillip intends to join the crowns. With the aid of the English, a Portuguese King returns to the Trhown of Portugal. The King's Crown is bestowed to the Virgin Mary, thus becoming the everlasting Queen of Portugal (even in our current Republican times)

... The French Invasions force the Portuguese crown to flee to Brasil. Portugal is oficially a British Protectorate. During these days
Spain takes possession of Olivença.

... The colonization of Brasil trully get's it's major strenght. Through the efforts of men known as "Bandeirantes" Brasil was explored and it's borders were set far west than the Tordesilles Treaty defined. The "bandeirantes" were simply taking the flags ("bandeiras") that marked the Brasilian border and puting them, again further and further West.

... On returning, D. João VI, leaves his son, D. Pedro rulling Brasil.
He will declare the Independence of Brasil soon after. Portugal looses his most prized possession. Angola is now the crown jewel, with his gold and diamonts. In the XX century oil will also stimulate the great powers greed on that territory.

... The Portuguese Crown becomes increasingly decadent. After surrendering to an Ultimatum from Ancient Ally Britain, the Monarky falls. In 1910, Portugal is a Republic.

... After changing so many Governments and Presidents as some Portuguese Football teams change their coach , Portugal enter a 48 year period of Dictatorial Regime, starting 1926.

... Portugal set himself as a neutral country in WWII. Lisbon becomes a center of spy activity. Portugal sells both to the Germans, that help support the Dictatorial Regime, and to the Ancient Allies, the British. Much of the Volframium sold to the Germans ends up being just rocks. The Portuguese blame the Resistence of the fact and keep the money.

... In 1965 the Colonial War begins, and so the end of the Portuguese Empire.

... In 1974, Portugal is a Democracy. In that day, not a single man died. The Carnation Revelution "Revolução dos Cravos" is one of the most peacefull transition to democracy in Mankind's History.

... In 1975, Portugal looses his final colonial possessions. It's the end of the Portuguese Empire, which lasted for almost 400 years

... In 199... (anyone recalls the date) the first Portuguese Satellite is sent to Space. Portugal enters the Space Race.

Please, fill in the gaps on this.

Thank you!

[Jay Bee]

I think a clarification of this sentence would be in order:

This is especially insulting when it's the Spanish that really propelled the downfall of the Portuguese Empire.

The jewel of the Portuguese crown was Brazil, which would have never been what is today hadn't the Portuguese be allowed to cross the borders established by the Tordesillas Treaty. I would really appreciate it if somebody explained to me what had Spain to do with the downfall of the Portuguese Empire. The opposite however would certainly be a matter for interesting debate. This, and other similar things (e.g. Castile (NOT Spain)-Portugal reunification.etc...) but it seems my Portuguese neighbors (and I hope friends ) do not enjoy playing the what-if game. As I said elsewhere, what saddens me is that Portugal has much more to offer than the usual "we-are-no-Spain" thing. What parcels of sovereignity did Portugal lose under Filipe I (Felipe II of Spain)? Was Portugal and its empire ruled by Castile as was the Netherlands, Italy or the New Spain? You tell me.


PS. Please do not accuse me of 'Iberian unionist'. This is just how History was and how it has been told to us depending on our birthplace.

[Ecowiz Returns]

You're right, Jay Be.

We can't blame Spain for loosing our Empire.
After the Restauration, Portugal regained all his territorial possessions.

The only thing Filipe I of Portugal can be acused is of draining the Portuguese Treasure to finance the "Armada". But he did the same to the Spanish Treasure.

Also many Portuguese Kings almost ruined Portugal with multimillionaire buildings, as the Convento the Mafra, after the Restauration of Independence.

You are also right when saying it's all History.
Nowadays Portugal is but a small country and much of our Economy is related with yours (Spain is our primal Client and Supplier). Also we, as the French and the German, the British and the German, the Greeks and the Turkish,... should realize that the new times we live in are more of cooperation than of competition.
Culturarly, with all our rich differences we must realize we are all European! Hopefully, one day the all World realize we are all equal Men and Women, and ancestral hatered may be a thing of the past.

[Jay Bee]

Eco glad you understood my point. Of course I would have liked to see the Spanish AND the Portuguese in Civ3! I would have liked to have them both in Civ2 too! (actually there there was a time I also campaigned for that ). But given the circumstances, I thought that a stronger case could be made for inclusion in Civ3 if the two countries were put together. Exclusively from a historical point of view, that would have made a lot of sense. Consider as well the name of the game.

PS. I promise not to hijack your thread again

[siredgar]

I said propelled, not main cause.

There are other reasons for Portugal's decline, but Spain's acquisition of it had a significant impact didn't it?

By the way, no one responded to my proposals about Alfonso and Prince Henry the Navigator.

[Jay Bee]

Significant impact? How would that be? Oh, and Spain did not 'acquire' Portugal, Philip II did. That's exactly the misunderstanding I have been fighting against

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
I would have liked to have them both in Civ2 too! (actually there there was a time I also campaigned for that ).

You?!? Really? Do you know you can post that in this thread? Because everything pro-portuguese is welcome!

Originally posted by Jay Bee
PS. I promise not to hijack your thread again

You better not, or it's time for you Mr.!

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Zealot
You?!? Really?

Yes, really. Why would that surprise you? Portugal deserved inclusion in Civ2 as much as anyone else. And remember, Civ2 already included the Spanish, so no need to make a stronger case there by placing Portugal and Spain together

[Ecowiz Returns]

Portuguese Leaders

Originally posted by siredgar
By the way, no one responded to my proposals about Alfonso and Prince Henry the Navigator.

Sorry about that siredgar.

I believe, we have a tight competition between D. Afonso Henriques e D. João II for the role of the Portuguese Civilization's Great Leader.

You point correctly to the fact that D. Afonso Henriques was the Portuguese King that has conquered the biggest part of the current Portuguese territory. But compared to what was once the territorial presence of Portugal in the world (Angola, for instance is nearly 6 times the size of Portugal, and Brasil... well, no comparison is possible ), our current territory is but a drop in an immense ocean!

Now, by studying our history, some of which I resume in a previous post, you can see that D. João II takes a very strong role in giving to the Portuguese the opportunity to secure our place in Universal History. It is a known fact that D. João II prepared the two major Portuguese Expeditions: Vasco da Gama's Discouvery of the Maritimal Route to India and Pedro Alvares Cabral "Discouvery" of Brasil. He also negotiated the Treaty of Tordesilles, assuring that Portugal would possess the territory of Brasil. The sequence of expeditions that allowed Vasco da Gama to reach India is a masterplan by itself: the journey of Diogo Cão through the Congo River to see if it was there the end of Africa, and ulitmatelly contacting the African King of Congo; the journey of Bartolomeu Dias crossing the Tourmentuous Cape and then returning (when he could actually go further) just to inform the King, prove it was not a subject left to chance.
That's why he was the "Perfect Prince"!

As for the Infante D. Henrique (or Prince Henry the Navigator, as you refered), I don't see him as much of a military heroe but much of a "Scientific Advisor" (civ-wyze). But I think his name must be connected to the Portuguese Civilization in some way and making him a Leader seems to me a good one.

[siredgar]

D. Afonso is Alfonso, I assume?

Also, in my opinion, it's not really whoever conquered the most territory who deserves to be the great leader! It is the person who played a pivotal role in its history. After all, Joan of Arc did not conquer more territory than Napoleon. But she may have not been as good a choice as Napoleon since he had greater influence, I think: Napoleonic Code, etc.