Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by JayKay


The characteristics of the caravel in Civ 3 are:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 3
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 3

I think the best should be an extra move and an extra point in transport capacity!

What do you guys think?

Jay Kay... you're the man!!!

I agree 100%! One extra move + one extra transport capacity!

Let's see what the other guys (Zealot? siredgar? your opinion on this point is also welcomed Jay Bee) think and then propose it in
the Expansion Pack (part 3)Thread.

Originally posted by JayKay

As i said before, the Magellans Expedition will trigger a golden age in the Portuguese civ if the abilities of the Portuguese civ are Commercial and Expansionist! Aldo i don't agree with this wonder to start the golden age in the Portuguese Civ, you must realize that this is a game, and there are other wonders that can cause golden ages in other civs that don't have nothing to do with each other, for instances: The Collossus and the Iroquois!

So, i don't think this is a big issue! The wonders already exist, and if you don't want to add a new one especifically to the portuguese civ, then any with the portuguese abilities will do!

Possible Wonders for Portuguese Golden Age in Original Civ 3:

Great Lighthouse (Commercial, Expansionist)
Magellan's Expedition (Commercial, Expansionist)
Collossus (Expansionist) + Any Commercial Wonder
SETI Program (Expansionist) + Any Commercial Wonder
Copernicus' Observatory (Expansionist) + Any Commercial Wonder
Adam Smith's Trading Company (Commercial) + Any Expansionist Wonder
United Nations (Commercial) + Any Expansionist Wonder

Ok, I see an alternative here, though I don't like it that much:

Instead of Magellan's (still requires Navigation, right?)
We could have
Great Lighthouse + Copernicus (the best proxy I can find to the School of Sagres).

What do you guys think? I still vote on Magellan's, mind you.

[Jay Bee]

Eco,

glad that we seem to find points in common re: Magellan. An impression of mine is that you tend to see the problem with XXI century eyes Things now are crystal clear; they were pretty obscure at the end of the XV century. For us the roundness of Earth is so pretty damn obvious as was the flatness of Earth for most of the XV century Europeans! Columbus was a visionary, a man ahead of his time. That was his success, but could have also been his doom.

But by reading the contents of the first link I provided, I get a stronger feeling that the counselors of King Ferdinand "knew" the Earth was round. They also thought (correctly, I might had) that the Earth was bigger than Columbus proposed it to be. So the question I found in the link was not that sailing to the Indies (I will have something to say about that word next) was useless because the Earth was flat, but because of the distance.

Although I vividly disagree, I also understand this is mostly a matter of opinion. However do not forget the page you found was written with a XX century mind. To me the potential bias is obvious, but perhaps not to you. The page takes many assumptions for granted. It's not written for scholarly purposes, only for divulgative/semi-educational purposes. That's the very reason I am very reluctant about accepting webpages as proofs of anything (unless they are endorsed by serious, highly-recognized authors/institutions).

On other matter, the main reason (and I'm not saying there aren't others) Portuguese used the Cape Route was because they mastered themselves in sayling through the Coast of Africa, and not that they thought the Earth was flat (even if many of the crew people believed in it - heck, some people still believe in it! ).

He he, and you surely know that there was a succesful precedent. The circumnavigation of Africa had previously been achieved... by the Phoenicians a good bunch of centuries before Da Gama! Does this rest any credit to Da Gama's voyage? Not a little bit in my eyes, but what if you found a page on the net stating that?

One small provocation, though (don't take it badly, please): are you really trying to compare the trade done with India with the rest of the trade done in any other of the so-called Eastern Indies?

Absolutely not! I never made a "trading" comparison. The Portuguese made their profit out of trading, The Spanish out of plundering. The Spanish didn't need trade to generate richness, so they did not poursue that path. I was merely refuting your statement that Magellan's route did not serve for trading purposes. It did. Minor, uninfluential? Yes. The point is, had the Spanish needed to massively trade with the Indians, they would have done it cos thanks to Magellan's they now had the chance. The Spanish galleons would sail from America, of course. The sea route Mexico-Manila remained in service for more than 300 years.

[JayKay]

Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Instead of Magellan's (still requires Navigation, right?)

Yes, it still requires Navigation!

Let me ask you a question:
You haven't played Civ 3 yet, have you?

I'm asking this, because it seems that you think that a wonder must be connected to a civ so it has the GA, and this is not true! Any wonder with the abilities of the player civ will trigger the GA, and when i mean any, i mean that the wonder to trigger the GA can be different in any game. For instances:

If you play with the Chinese (Militaristic, Industrous in the Civ 3 Original version) you can have your GA trigged by the construction of the following combination of Wonders:

1. Great Wall (Militaristic, Industrous)
2. Manhattan Project (Militaristic, Industrous)
3. Sun Tzu's (Militaristic) + Hanging Gardens (Industrous)
4. Sun Tzu's (Militaristic) + Pyramids (Industrous)
5. Hoover Dam (Industrous) + Universal Suffrage (Militaristic)
etc....etc.....etc
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by JayKay
The characteristics of the caravel in Civ 3 are:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 3
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 3

I think the best should be an extra move and an extra point in transport capacity!

What do you guys think?

Oh man! Better remove the Portuguese civ from Civ 3, no?
What's the fun of having an improved caravel as an UU?
Besides, it had to have at least 5 movement points to be of any worth exploring the seas!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
For me it's like saying AMD is denting Intel's "monopoly" in processors.

I don't know what do you mean with "denting", but I can assure you that in the rest of Europe, AMD's processors are kicking a lot on Intel's butt, since they are cheaper AND faster!
But since Portugal is a country of rich, smart and enlightened people, Intel has the supremacy in here...
My last (and second) Intel processor was a 486 DX-2 66 MHz.
If AMD continues to behave well, that will really be my last Intel for life! Intel is such a waste of money...

[JayKay]

Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by Zealot

Oh man! Better remove the Portuguese civ from Civ 3, no?
What's the fun of having an improved caravel as an UU?

So...let's remove the Greeks from Civ 3 too!! Their Special unit isn't good attacking etheir!!

As a matter of fact, it isn't good etheir at defense, thanks to the civ 3 combat system! I lost a game, because i thought my hoplite would stand up to warriors! It seems that i was wrong, because they killed each of my regular (and sometimes veteran) hoplite (and sometimes in walled cities) with only one regular warrior, and guess what - they destroyed me!

BTW, this was in Monarch Difficulty Level!

Originally posted by Zealot
Besides, it had to have at least 5 movement points to be of any worth exploring the seas!

Ok...why not, 5 movement points is cool!

Or we could lower it's cost so that the Nau would be cheaper to build than the caravel!

Originally posted by Zealot
I don't know what do you mean with "denting", but I can assure you that in the rest of Europe, AMD's processors are kicking a lot on Intel's butt, since they are cheaper AND faster!
But since Portugal is a country of rich, smart and enlightened people, Intel has the supremacy in here...
My last (and second) Intel processor was a 486 DX-2 66 MHz.
If AMD continues to behave well, that will really be my last Intel for life! Intel is such a waste of money...

My last Intel Processor (and second) was Pentium MMX 200 Mhz and now i have a AMD K6 II!

BTW, this post was my 100th post!!!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by JayKay
So...let's remove the Greeks from Civ 3 too!! Their Special unit isn't good attacking etheir!!

It's not a matter of attacking or defending, it's a matter of usefulness! In theory the Hoplite is a great unit, but in Civ 3 it's just a matter of luck.

Originally posted by JayKay
Ok...why not, 5 movement points is cool!

Or we could lower it's cost so that the Nau would be cheaper to build than the caravel!

Glad you agree.
About the price of the Nau, I have to check the price of the ordinary caravel and make sure that the Nau doesn't get unbalanced. But it is a good idea, nevertheless.

[JayKay]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by Zealot

It's not a matter of attacking or defending, it's a matter of usefulness! In theory the Hoplite is a great unit, but in Civ 3 it's just a matter of luck.

Are you calling the Nau unuseful? Are you perhaps crazy?

Let me explain the use of the Nau:

-Exploration: faster movement leads to discover new civs sooner and get more goodies before anyone else;

-Transport capacity=4: this way you can carry an army before the Galleon, since the leader ocupies one position in the vessel.

BTW, if you want more usefulness out of the Nau, you can make the caravel not sink in ocean squares (or lower this probability - not sure is possible) !

Originally posted by Zealot
Glad you agree.
About the price of the Nau, I have to check the price of the ordinary caravel and make sure that the Nau doesn't get unbalanced. But it is a good idea, nevertheless.

I've already posted the cost of the Caravel. It's 40 shields. You even quoted it!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by JayKay
Are you calling the Nau unuseful? Are you perhaps crazy?

Am I perhaps not?

Triggering a Golden age by a wonder is always difficult! You should know that! I have played several games, and even building several wonders didn't trigger the golden age. Only with a victorious unique unit.

Now what's the fun of not being able to control when to trigger a golden age?

Originally posted by JayKay
Let me explain the use of the Nau:

-Exploration: faster movement leads to discover new civs sooner and get more goodies before anyone else;

-Transport capacity=4: this way you can carry an army before the Galleon, since the leader ocupies one position in the vessel.

BTW, if you want more usefulness out of the Nau, you can make the caravel not sink in ocean squares (or lower this probability - not sure is possible) !

For those who just sit tight and build, the Portuguese civ wouldn't be much fun. But for those who like to expand overseas, say to me that the Nau as you propose is going to be a useful and fun unit to have in the game, then ok! We have a UU!

Originally posted by JayKay
I've already posted the cost of the Caravel. It's 40 shields. You even quoted it!

Ooops! I did! Sorry!

[Ecowiz Returns]

Jay Bee:

Glad we reached a common ground of understainding.
Better leave it like that. After all that's not what this thread is all about.

Zealot:

You are right. I still didn't buy Civ III. I'm wayting for the reviews on the patch. Somehow, I'm not very confortable with
the idea of having technologically superior units, more expensive I suppose, being beaten by less evolved ones.

However, I'm beggining to understand your point on trigering the
Golden Age. If it is difficult to do it through Wonders... I believe I am in a stand-still.

And what is your view about goverernment?

Everybody:

Sorry about the Intel-AMD example. Although everybody understood the main idea, it was not such a good example, after all.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Zealot:

You are right. I still didn't buy Civ III. I'm wayting for the reviews on the patch. Somehow, I'm not very confortable with
the idea of having technologically superior units, more expensive I suppose, being beaten by less evolved ones.

Welcome to Civ 3, Ecowiz...
Then I think you won't be buying the game ever!

[JayKay]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by Zealot
Triggering a Golden age by a wonder is always difficult! You should know that! I have played several games, and even building several wonders didn't trigger the golden age. Only with a victorious unique unit.

Perhaps you build the wrong wonders!

Starting the Portuguese GA is actually very simple, you only need to build the Magellan's Voyage, which have both abilities, and you're on your way to the GA! I don't think building one wonder it's all that difficult!

Besides, since the AI tends not to disband old naval units, you can always attack one Galley with your Nau and prey it wins!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by JayKay
Perhaps you build the wrong wonders!

I know what I'm talking about, JayKay.

Originally posted by JayKay
Starting the Portuguese GA is actually very simple, you only need to build the Magellan's Voyage, which have both abilities, and you're on your way to the GA! I don't think building one wonder it's all that difficult!

Could you please tell us how many times did you trigger a GA with a wonder?
Theory is one thing. Reality is another. They're different.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Regarding Wonders and Triggering the Golden Age:

I believe we are starting to have a problem here:

- If Zealot is right and Wonders are not an easy way (at least not as easy as winning a battle with a UU) to start GA then the Portuguese Civilization is bound to become handicaped.

I feel the temptation to start a thread on Strategy about Trigering the GA (I better first see if someone didn't start it already ). Only it is a bit ridicule to do that, since I don't no if
I even want to buy the game (though being able to play to Portuguese seem a good enough reason ).

Regarding the Nau (or Nao as it seems to be the prefered name):

Again, this is the opinion of someone who never played CIV III.
However, I see the Nau much like a pretty armless (ie no attack points) big carrier ship (ie, with one or 2 more carry points than the caravel) and maybe quicker than the caravel (I can accept it is not as accurate as the rest).
The problem I have with the Portuguese UU as it is proposed in the main thread is that it is much weaker than the Dutch's in all the aspects, when, to be accurate, it's not that clear that it was. The Portuguese were much tied with the Dutch when accounting all the battles they won against each other.
But as a pro-expansion, non military unit (I know some don't agree with this particular point) I whould prefer a
Nau like this 0:2:5 (5).

Returning to the fist issue:

However, if, for triggering the GA, it is advisable to have a military unit, I would vote (to keep with the current events in Portugal -> if you're over 18, don't forget to vote next Sunday )
on the Templars.

[JayKay]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by Zealot
Could you please tell us how many times did you trigger a GA with a wonder?

Well....actually, everytime i tried to, i did it (two times)! But, i might got lucky!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[JayKay]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36061&highlight=Golden

If you read the thread shown above, you'll see that there's more people (like myself) that always get the GA out of the building of Wonders matching their civ abilities!

Aldo they talk about some chance for this to happen (and not 100% probabilities), that chance seems to be very high or even 100% for some wonder/civs like the Great Wall and the Chinese!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)