Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[Ecowiz Returns]

I presume you presume correctly siredgar.

It's just that Alfonso is not a Portuguese name (Afonso is the right spelling) and also our first King, the first Afonso is known as D. Afonso Henriques and not as D. Afonso I.

But I have to say your last post confused me:
Do you still think D. Afonso Henriques is the best choice?

[siredgar]

Well, you know it's going to be "Alfonso".

The game is in English, so it's going to be spelled that way. Anyhow, it is Alfonso who really started Portugal's road to becoming a great power. He is the first king of Portugal and established its expansionist beginnings.

[siredgar]

http://www.en.eun.org/vs/history/portugal/pt_history.html

"Due to endless fights and negotiations D. Afonso I, first king of Portugal, was awarded by the pope (1179) with the papal bull manifestis probatum thus bringing stability. At the eyes of all the Christian world, that meant the birth of a new kingdom in a part of the world where the fight against the infidels would be reinforced by a backup force of attack (The Palestine and the Peninsula)."

Thus, D. Afonso I, "Alfonso", played a significant role in a global struggle. He established the kingdom of Portugal, fought off the Spanish and the Moors, brought stability to the region, and expanded into important territory. He actually fought in the battles starting out as little more than "a quasi-independent guerrilla chief", not unlike Joan of Arc for France. He really started everything for the nation of Portugal.

D. Joao II, "John I", primarily commissioned exploratory voyages abroad. It is without a doubt he greatly expanded the empire and he is often described as the ruler who commenced the most glorious period in Portuguese history. However, it is not always the person who conquers the most territory or who achieves the greatest glory that becomes the great leader in Civilization III.

Alfonso is clearly more memorable and had a greater impact at a more crucial period in time for Portugal. He is the pivotal figure in the country's history, in my opinion.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Well, you know it's going to be "Alfonso".

Originally posted by siredgar
The game is in English, so it's going to be spelled that way. Anyhow, it is Alfonso who really started Portugal's road to becoming a great power. He is the first king of Portugal and established its expansionist beginnings.

I'm really not following you here, my friend.

First: The English equivalent of Afonso is Alphonse. So why Alfonso?

Second: The site you refer in the previous post calls D. Afonso Henriques Afonso I and not Alfonso I. So, why stick with a wrong name?

As for D. João II, let me help you:
The second dinasty begun with D. João I. His son was D. Duarte.
His grandson was D. Afonso V and, finally, D. João II, "O Principe Perfeito" was his great-grandson.

If you notice the previous posts, you will see that the Portuguese Culture is one of Trade, (Maritimal) Adventure, Exploration, not a Militaristic one. D. Afonso Henriques was a great man in his time, but, if we compare the territory we gave to Portugal with the presence D. João II assure to Portugal in the World, well... there is no possible comparison! D. Afonso Henriques would best represent a Militaristic Portugal, but the Portuguese just aren't like that.

As for D. João II, I t ake from the site you refer:
"From here on king D. João II was the leader of the Indies reached by sea sailing along the African coast. The known maps showed that that was impossible to accomplish, for in those maps the African coast was straight down until the south pole without any access to Indian ocean, however the Portuguese navigators and merchants experience indicated that it might be possible for them to connect the Atlantic ocean to the Indian ocean.

D. João II organised several voyages:
Diogo Cão reached the Zaire (Congo) river mouth in 1483;
Bartolomeu Dias sailed around the Cape of Good Hope, until than Known as Cape of the Torments, in 1487.

The doorway to the Indies was opened, the land of the spices and the luxurious products. Meanwhile Spain had also joined the expansion race, and, to solve several conflicts the two countries drawn a treaty in 1494, the Treaty of Tordesillas, in which they agreed to share among them all the found or found-to-be lands.

Vasco da Gama reached the Indies in 1498, in the reign of D. Manuel I.
The second expedition sent to the Indies was commanded by Pedro Álvares de Cabral, but on that voyage he officially found the Brazil in 1500. "

As I said... is beyond comparison!

My thoughts, though.

Anyone else's?

[siredgar]

In English-text history books, he is called Alfonso I.

[JayKay]

Originally posted by siredgar
In English-text history books, he is called Alfonso I.

But this is not english history!

It's just like Magellan's - the real name is Magalhães!

I would really prefer that the true names were used (portuguese ones), but since even, in civ 3, "Joan d'Arc" is called "Joan of Arc" and it's French, i don't think that us (being Portuguese and smaller than France) can beat it!

It seems that the english language just translate everything, things that shouldn't be translated! I don't recall anyone foreign having is name translated in Portuguese history books! I think it's a question of education/culture - the higher culture civilizations just assimilate lower culture civilizations just like in civ 3 as in real life. I hope it wasn't this way, because many wars have been fought because of this culture dominance, and many others will come because of the same thing!

It seems that whoever is in the world dominance, trys to enforce their culture over the others (i'm not trying to judge anyone, this happened all over the Human history - even with the Portuguese and Spanish trying to enforce their religion to the American Natives and to the Arabs), and that's really sad, because diversification is really the best caractheristic of the Humanity!

Hope i didn't bored anyone! I just wanted to make a point!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by siredgar
In English-text history books, he is called Alfonso I.

Well, what can I say?

I can say this:
Then, English-text history books are wrong.

By the way, "Jeanne D'Arc" sound much better than "Joan D'Arc",
as "Katerina" reads much better than "Katherine".

But, who knows, maybe a Portuguese edition may call
the America Leader "Abraão Lincoln", the English Leader
"Isabel I", the French Leader "Joana D'Arc"... That would be a riot.
Of course we don't have a big enough market to justify it... mmm... maybe with Brasil, we have.
Who knows, we might try to make a translation.
( Ecowiz runs in search of hidding from fearce InforGames layers )

Seriously, what saddens me in the process is that the name you read in your english-text history book is not Portuguese, nor English... is a Spanish name!
No wonder most of you guys think Portugal is a Spanish Province!!!

We must have made something veeery wrong in the past to deserve such a treatment!

[Ecowiz Returns]

Any comments? Please!

"Friends... countrymen... lend me your..." opinions!

What do you think is lacking in the Portuguese History's Summary?

I need your help on this.

Also there seems to be some indecision on the Portuguese Leader.

Other questions:

Do we use the Nau as the Portuguese UU? How will it be (carries more units, has one more move,...)? Do we use the Knight of the Order (of Christ)?

Do you think we should have Magellan's Journey to start the portuguese Golden Age?

What will it be the Portuguese Golden Age? The Rennaissance?

What will be the prefered government (Monarcky?)?
What will be the least prefered (Democracy, Communism?)?

Do you remember any other cities?

Do you remember any other heroes?

We still have so much work, and so little time!

Everyone's help (Portuguese or not) is much welcomed!!!

[siredgar]

"Abraão Lincoln"

LOL, I see how ridiculous this sounds and understand your point.

Perhaps we should start a movement to call all countries by their real names, too?

Italia, not Italy
Deutscheland, not Germany
Nihon, not Japan
Hankuk, not Korea
Brasilia, not Brazil

However, with multi-linguistic countries like Switzerland, English serves as a neutral language (Switzerland, rather than Suisse, Schweiz, or Svizzera).

[Jay Bee]

Re: Any comments? Please!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
"Do you think we should have Magellan's Journey to start the portuguese Golden Age?

Oh come on, Eco! That would be funny for many reasons, the least important being that Magellan's job was to break the Portuguese monopoly of commerce with the Indies! It's amusing that you love Magallanes so much when what he actually did was to side with the enemy to hurt his own country.

[JayKay]

Re: Any comments? Please!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Also there seems to be some indecision on the Portuguese Leader.

The way i see it, both leaders are good choices (D. Afonso Henriques or D. João II), aldo one could say that without D. Afonso Henriques Portugal would not even exist, D. João II made out of Portugal a leading nation in it's time and knowned all over the globe for their achivements!

So i think perhaps D. João II is a better choice, but i will not disagree if D. Afonso Henriques is the chosen leader, because they both had a great impact in Portugal, but as i said D. João II made that Portugal had a big impact in the globe too, not just in Portugal!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Do we use the Nau as the Portuguese UU? How will it be (carries more units, has one more move,...)? Do we use the Knight of the Order (of Christ)?

I think the "Nau", aldo it would be the more accurante special unit, isn't the most balanced one, because in order to gain the Golden Age you'd have to win with it in a battle, and if all Civs are in the same tech level, attacking Caravels with Nau's would mean losing almost all the time (1 Attack against 2 Defense), aldo one could argue that in Civ 3 combat is so random that you could win a lot of times with inferior units! But since the patch for civ 3 is almost out and that could be one of the improvements, or at least i hope so - i'm tired of losing Battleships to Ironclads and things like that; we should think of another Special Unit!

So i think the Knight of the Order of Christ (also knowned as Templars) is more suitable to this purpose, once it could be more balanced! This could be a Knight with an extra attack point 5A/3D/2M! I think this is far more balanced than the extra defense point proposed. This way the Knight would be more powerful attacking (as in real life), and would still be less powerful than the cavalry (6 Attack)! The +1 on defense proposed would unbalance things, because would make this special knight a more good defender than the cavalry and as powerful as the first gunpowder units (muskets), and would be unreal, since the power of Knights is the offense and not in the defense!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Do you think we should have Magellan's Journey to start the portuguese Golden Age?

If my proposed abilities to the Portuguese civ is accepted (Commercial and Expansionist) then the Magellan's Voyage is going to trigger a golden age in the Portuguese Civ because that wonder have those same abilities, aldo another Wonder that's more Portuguese (like the discover of the Maritime path to India (+commerce in city) or the School of Sagres - perhaps doubling science in that city) would be more accurate, since Magellan's Voyage is Spanish!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
What will it be the Portuguese Golden Age? The Rennaissance?

Middle Ages that's for sure! Navigation as a Pre-requisite to the Wonder or Chivalry as a pre-requisite to the Special Unit!

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
What will be the prefered government (Monarcky?)?
What will be the least prefered (Democracy, Communism?)?

Prefered - Monarchy
Least Prefered - Communism

Tell me what you think!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Originally posted by siredgar
Brasilia, not Brazil

Where did you get that one? The name portuguese gave to that territory was Brasil! Brasilia is the Brazilian Capital!
And Brazil with a "z" is in english. In portuguese is with an "s"

[siredgar]

My bad on "Brasilia".

Where can I get more information on the Nau (besides this thread)?

Thanks.

[JayKay]

Originally posted by siredgar
My bad on "Brasilia".

Where can I get more information on the Nau (besides this thread)?

Thanks.

There you go (i found other sites, but they were in Portuguese and i don't think you are able to read them, so i'll just post the english ones):

- The Portuguese carrack (the english name of "nau") => http://www.nmm.ac.uk/searchbin/searc...ash=false&dev=

- A little more info on the Portuguese carrack => http://surcouf.net/anglais/history.htm

- Exploration throught carrack => http://www.nmm.ac.uk/education/fact_..._explorer.html

- Colombus carrack => http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/ships.htm

BTW, the name "nau" comes from the latin word "nave" wich means ship; vessel.

Hope i'd been of some help! I know this isn't much! But i'll try to find more info!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Re: Any comments? Please!

Originally posted by Jay Bee


Oh come on, Eco! That would be funny for many reasons, the least important being that Magellan's job was to break the Portuguese monopoly of commerce with the Indies! It's amusing that you love Magallanes so much when what he actually did was to side with the enemy to hurt his own country.

Jay, you already know my opinion about Sid's choice of Magellan's Expedition as a Wonder of the World, but I will repeat it: when comparing with Vasco da Gama's expeditions anyone can realize that Magelan's Expedition was least important at the time and also least decisive in Human History. Even you must realize that if the main purpose of the expedition led by Fernão de Magalhães (that's the Portuguese name, actually ) was to find another route to India than it was a faillure! Noone ever used that route to reach India, not then, not ever!

But, our friend in Firaxis didn't manage to fix that mistake (and I sent them a message, prior to the game release (maybe not soon enough ). So I believe it's the only reasonable choice in starting the Portuguese Golden Age.

And thinking about it, maybe the fact that Magellan's Expedition was just awaste of Spain's money, due to the Portuguese Dominance, maybe, due to the irony of that fact, it makes a good enough way to start the Portuguese Golden Age!

Also that gives way to have a non-military Unique Unit- my personal favourite. The Portuguese were never known as warmongers and our expeditions in the North of Africa don't really count as the Portuguese most accomplished deeds. So, I believe the biggest chalenge regarding the question "What if I was the Portuguese leader from Day One" is to win through trade and culture and not exactly through military dominance. Of course anyone should be allowed to try, but some kind of "punishment" should arrive from going against the peacefull nature of the Portuguese People. And this punishment might arriving for not being able to make the "Nau" able to win an attack against any military sea unit (which is, more or less, hystorically accurate).