Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Re: Any comments? Please!

Originally posted by Jay Bee


Oh come on, Eco! That would be funny for many reasons, the least important being that Magellan's job was to break the Portuguese monopoly of commerce with the Indies! It's amusing that you love Magallanes so much when what he actually did was to side with the enemy to hurt his own country.

Jay, you already know my opinion about Sid's choice of Magellan's Expedition as a Wonder of the World, but I will repeat it: when comparing with Vasco da Gama's expeditions anyone can realize that Magelan's Expedition was least important at the time and also least decisive in Human History. Even you must realize that if the main purpose of the expedition led by Fernão de Magalhães (that's the Portuguese name, actually ) was to find another route to India than it was a faillure! Noone ever used that route to reach India, not then, not ever!

But, our friend in Firaxis didn't manage to fix that mistake (and I sent them a message, prior to the game release (maybe not soon enough ). So I believe it's the only reasonable choice in starting the Portuguese Golden Age.

And thinking about it, maybe the fact that Magellan's Expedition was just awaste of Spain's money, due to the Portuguese Dominance, maybe, due to the irony of that fact, it makes a good enough way to start the Portuguese Golden Age!

Also that gives way to have a non-military Unique Unit- my personal favourite. The Portuguese were never known as warmongers and our expeditions in the North of Africa don't really count as the Portuguese most accomplished deeds. So, I believe the biggest chalenge regarding the question "What if I was the Portuguese leader from Day One" is to win through trade and culture and not exactly through military dominance. Of course anyone should be allowed to try, but some kind of "punishment" should arrive from going against the peacefull nature of the Portuguese People. And this punishment might arriving for not being able to make the "Nau" able to win an attack against any military sea unit (which is, more or less, hystorically accurate).

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Re: Any comments? Please!

Originally posted by Jay Bee


Oh come on, Eco! That would be funny for many reasons, the least important being that Magellan's job was to break the Portuguese monopoly of commerce with the Indies! It's amusing that you love Magallanes so much when what he actually did was to side with the enemy to hurt his own country.

Jay, you already know my opinion about Sid's choice of Magellan's Expedition as a Wonder of the World, but I will repeat it: when comparing with Vasco da Gama's expeditions anyone can realize that Magelan's Expedition was least important at the time and also least decisive in Human History. Even you must realize that if the main purpose of the expedition led by Fernão de Magalhães (that's the Portuguese name, actually ) was to find another route to India than it was a faillure! Noone ever used that route to reach India, not then, not ever!

But, our friend in Firaxis didn't manage to fix that mistake (and I sent them a message, prior to the game release (maybe not soon enough ). So I believe it's the only reasonable choice in starting the Portuguese Golden Age.

And thinking about it, maybe the fact that Magellan's Expedition was just awaste of Spain's money, due to the Portuguese Dominance, maybe, due to the irony of that fact, it makes a good enough way to start the Portuguese Golden Age!

Also that gives way to have a non-military Unique Unit- my personal favourite. The Portuguese were never known as warmongers and our expeditions in the North of Africa don't really count as the Portuguese most accomplished deeds. So, I believe the biggest chalenge regarding the question "What if I was the Portuguese leader from Day One" is to win through trade and culture and not exactly through military dominance. Of course anyone should be allowed to try, but some kind of "punishment" should arrive from going against the peacefull nature of the Portuguese People. And this punishment might arriving for not being able to make the "Nau" able to win an attack against any military sea unit (which is, more or less, hystorically accurate).

[Ecowiz Returns]

Sorry about the triple post
Great work JayKay!!!

[Ecowiz Returns]

Wernazuma III is already taking the last changes to the Portuguese Civilization! Go there and see if everything is OK.

I made some sugestions there, based on some of the last posts, but if you feel it is needed, we should discuss them here and propose a final version.

What do you think?

[Jay Bee]

Eco, while it's perfectly understandable that you cheer up for da Gama and the historical implications of his voyage you seem to have missed the 'lesser fact' that Magellan's expedition demonstrated that the Earth was round. That only places this voyage as one of the more decisive voyages in all of human history. So please, don't let your nationalistic feelings interfere with your objective judgement.

There's more. Magellan's expedition demonstrated that it was possible to reach Asia sailing west. Magellan's expedition charted the Pacific ocean currents. Magellan's expedition allowed Spain to enter the Asian trade.... The Spaniards crossed the Pacific to trade with Asia for almost 400 years, so please think a bit more before you tell no one used that route to reach India.

No one disputes the importance of Vaco da Gama's voyage. It was the beginning of the Discovery Age. But please put things in their right place. The realization that the Earth was actually round changed everything. Everything. Some more food for your thought: Why did da Gama sail East and not West? Answer: he did not have other choice. He did not know the Earth was round.

Magellan, a Portuguese, helped ruin the prifitable Portuguese trade monopoly with the Indies. That was my only point. Having Magellan's voyage start the Portuguese golden age is very odd history-wise.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Eco, while it's perfectly understandable that you cheer up for da Gama and the historical implications of his voyage you seem to have missed the 'lesser fact' that Magellan's expedition demonstrated that the Earth was round. That only places this voyage as one of the more decisive voyages in all of human history. So please, don't let your nationalistic feelings interfere with your objective judgement.

(...)

No one disputes the importance of Vaco da Gama's voyage. It was the beginning of the Discovery Age. But please put things in their right place. The realization that the Earth was actually round changed everything. Everything. Some more food for your thought: Why did da Gama sail East and not West? Answer: he did not have other choice. He did not know the Earth was round.

Magellan's Expedition is far from beeing the proof of Earth's Roundness

Please look at:

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm

A greek philosofer, Erathostenes, proved it.
Columbus knew it (so all the Navigation speciallists knew it).
At most, Magellan's Expedition helped prove it to the ones that still didn't believed in it.

Given that it was the first European Expedition in the Pacific, Magellan's Travel has his rightfull place in History. It was dering to go through the "Estreito de Magalhães" (how do we say it in English?) and so, rightfully he Fernão de Magalhães got his name perpetuated in History (and Geography ). Also, I never said Magellan's journey wasn't scientifically important.

All I keep stating is that, all things accounted for, Magellan's Expedition isn't nearly as important as Vasco da Gama's.

The Spaniards crossed the Pacific to trade with Asia for almost 400 years, so please think a bit more before you tell no one used that route to reach India.

(...)

Magellan, a Portuguese, helped ruin the prifitable Portuguese trade monopoly with the Indies. That was my only point. Having Magellan's voyage start the Portuguese golden age is very odd history-wise.

We cannot award the Spanish for being the ones to ruin the Portuguese trade with India. Not only the Spanish were never known for Silk and Spice trade (as far as I recall, but please help me if you know something that I don't), but it were the Dutch and the English that, through Piracy, made most of the Portuguese Trade Expeditions to India fruitless. So, the only help Spain might have given was to grant the English and Dutch a reason to attack Portuguese ships, during the reign of Phillip (prior to that, the attacks were much slower - the English had to abide an international alliance with the Portuguese so they only started to attack in the open after Phillip II of Spain become King of Portugal).

Also noone talks about a competing route to India going West. Maybe it is because of the distance. Maybe it is because of the fact that the Pacific Ocean is by far bigger than the Atlantic and not many points of support to a Trade Expedition to India can be found in the immense nautical miles that separate the American Continent and the Indian Subcontinent. Mostly, the Estreito de Magalhães was used to reach the Western Coast of America.

On the other hand, prior to the construction of the Suez Canal, inaugurated in November 17th 1869, the Cape Route was the most important route used to make trade with India. That makes the Cape Route the most important Trade Route in the World for more than 4 centuries! (And I will keep stating this until you prove me Spain did any trade with India, whatsoever!). And, after the construction of this Canal, the Cape Route is still on of the most important trade routes, still explored by important Dutch Companies.

Jay, I'm not trying to push my point. There are no patriotic reasons clouding my judgement (altough they could have been).
All the facts I presented are facts of History, and all of them point for the fact that although much more popular, Magellan's Expedition is by far less important than Vasco da Gama's.

But I must confess I'm not that knowledgable of Spanish History. As far as I know, Spain is known for the tones of gold obtained in America and the power the Habsburg House had in Europe. I never heard nor read anything about the importance Spain had in the Trade with India (contrary to, for example, the Dutch). Also I believe the Tordesilles Meridian prevented any trade between Spain and India (India was on the Portuguese side - Spanish side was mostly water). I say this accounting on the fact that the "Meridian of Tordesilles" was set to be 370 legues west of Cape Verde, which is sure to make India out of the Spanish half. If you look at this map, and follow the meridian 30 degrees west and 150 degrees west of Greenwich (which is the nearest to Cape Verde, you will see I'm about right.

On this subject I just found another helpfull link. Take a look at:

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/history/stucker/Chapter17Essay.html

None the less, I agree with you that it will be unfortunate if the Portuguese Golden Age starts with a Spanish endeavour. However Magellan's Expedition, in what concerns CIV III is the event which I think is nearer to the start of the Portuguese Golden Age, so... We have to work with what we have.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Eco, while it's perfectly understandable that you cheer up for da Gama and the historical implications of his voyage you seem to have missed the 'lesser fact' that Magellan's expedition demonstrated that the Earth was round. That only places this voyage as one of the more decisive voyages in all of human history. So please, don't let your nationalistic feelings interfere with your objective judgement.

(...)

No one disputes the importance of Vaco da Gama's voyage. It was the beginning of the Discovery Age. But please put things in their right place. The realization that the Earth was actually round changed everything. Everything. Some more food for your thought: Why did da Gama sail East and not West? Answer: he did not have other choice. He did not know the Earth was round.

Magellan's Expedition is far from beeing the proof of Earth's Roundness

Please look at:

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm

A greek philosofer, Erathostenes, proved it.
Columbus knew it (so all the Navigation speciallists knew it).
At most, Magellan's Expedition helped prove it to the ones that still didn't believed in it.

Given that it was the first European Expedition in the Pacific, Magellan's Travel has his rightfull place in History. It was dering to go through the "Estreito de Magalhães" (how do we say it in English?) and so, rightfully he Fernão de Magalhães got his name perpetuated in History (and Geography ). Also, I never said Magellan's journey wasn't scientifically important.

All I keep stating is that, all things accounted for, Magellan's Expedition isn't nearly as important as Vasco da Gama's.

The Spaniards crossed the Pacific to trade with Asia for almost 400 years, so please think a bit more before you tell no one used that route to reach India.

(...)

Magellan, a Portuguese, helped ruin the prifitable Portuguese trade monopoly with the Indies. That was my only point. Having Magellan's voyage start the Portuguese golden age is very odd history-wise.

We cannot award the Spanish for being the ones to ruin the Portuguese trade with India. Not only the Spanish were never known for Silk and Spice trade (as far as I recall, but please help me if you know something that I don't), but it were the Dutch and the English that, through Piracy, made most of the Portuguese Trade Expeditions to India fruitless. So, the only help Spain might have given was to grant the English and Dutch a reason to attack Portuguese ships, during the reign of Phillip (prior to that, the attacks were much slower - the English had to abide an international alliance with the Portuguese so they only started to attack in the open after Phillip II of Spain become King of Portugal).

Also noone talks about a competing route to India going West. Maybe it is because of the distance. Maybe it is because of the fact that the Pacific Ocean is by far bigger than the Atlantic and not many points of support to a Trade Expedition to India can be found in the immense nautical miles that separate the American Continent and the Indian Subcontinent. Mostly, the Estreito de Magalhães was used to reach the Western Coast of America.

On the other hand, prior to the construction of the Suez Canal, inaugurated in November 17th 1869, the Cape Route was the most important route used to make trade with India. That makes the Cape Route the most important Trade Route in the World for more than 4 centuries! (And I will keep stating this until you prove me Spain did any trade with India, whatsoever!). And, after the construction of this Canal, the Cape Route is still on of the most important trade routes, still explored by important Dutch Companies.

Jay, I'm not trying to push my point. There are no patriotic reasons clouding my judgement (altough they could have been).
All the facts I presented are facts of History, and all of them point for the fact that although much more popular, Magellan's Expedition is by far less important than Vasco da Gama's.

But I must confess I'm not that knowledgable of Spanish History. As far as I know, Spain is known for the tones of gold obtained in America and the power the Habsburg House had in Europe. I never heard nor read anything about the importance Spain had in the Trade with India (contrary to, for example, the Dutch). Also I believe the Tordesilles Meridian prevented any trade between Spain and India (India was on the Portuguese side - Spanish side was mostly water). I say this accounting on the fact that the "Meridian of Tordesilles" was set to be 370 legues west of Cape Verde, which is sure to make India out of the Spanish half. If you look at this map , and follow the meridian 30 degrees west of Greenwich and 150 degrees east, the nearest to the Tordesilles meridian, you will see I'm about right.

On this subject I just found another helpfull link. Take a look at:

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/history/stucker/Chapter17Essay.html

None the less, I agree with you that it will be unfortunate if the Portuguese Golden Age starts with a Spanish endeavour. However Magellan's Expedition, in what concerns CIV III is the event which I think is nearer to the start of the Portuguese Golden Age, so... We have to work with what we have.

[Jay Bee]

Eco, you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. If you can't make a distinction between 'belief' and 'proof' I am afraid this is the end of the discussion. Oh, in the past East Asia was collectively referred to as 'the Indies'. Did you really understand I was referring to the country called India?

There is more but... oh well

[Ecowiz Returns]

Jay, I'm sorry the way our discussion has turned.

Mind you, I don't argue for the sake of it.
I offered you many proven facts. I assume, however, that, some of my statements were not accompanied by a reference. If you require a reference, pelase ask and I'll try to find it. I only thought you could find them to be right for they result logically from the refered facts.

As for your statements, however, none of them were backed up by references.

I asked for them, and, as then, I assure you if you show me references, I'll be the first to recognize my mistake. But no references came.

Instead you made it personal. You said it was nationalistic feelings. Now you say I argue for the sake of it. Too bad.

If there is no other way for we to debate our points, maybe it is best to end now, as you propose.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Comunism as shuned government

One other more important subjects:

Who thinks Comunism should be the Portuguese shunned Government instead of Democracy?

I for one believe it is a better choice. The Portuguese had the choice to introduce Comunism and refused it.

Any other thoughts?

[Ecowiz Returns]

Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

About the characteristics of the Nau:

Can someone tell me the characteristics of the Caravel?

What do you think should be upgrated: Attack, Defense, Moves?

I vote for one increased move point.

If the Nau is the UU then we must chose a Wonder as the Beggining of the Portuguese Golden Age.

Prior to my (fruitless) debate with Jay Be I voted for Magellan's Expedition. What are your views?

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Instead you made it personal. You said it was nationalistic feelings. Now you say I argue for the sake of it. Too bad.

Oh don't misunderstand me. Why would I make it personal? I'm sorry if I gave you this impression and apologize. It was you who compared Da Gama's with Magellan's, a comparison totally unfair in my eyes. Please forgive me but I believe that only a Portuguese would have made such a comparison. Hence the nationalistic feelings. Just think about this: how many non-Portuguese people would pick Da Gama's over Magellan's? Again, in my eyes, the only idea of comparing these two enormous feats makes no sense.

In addition, you gave me the impression to be arguing for the sake of it because you denied an obvious point. Nobody before Magellan's provided anything solid ("proven facts" you call them) to demonstrate the Earth was round. Before Magellan's, all were suggestions and beliefs. Just that. The links you yourself provided make my point, not yours. Re-read them again, please.

It's especially curious that you bring about a page about Columbus to justify that Magellan's was "far from being the proof of Earth's Roundness" (your words). Now, why do you think the Portuguese and others dismissed Columbus and his plan? Didn't you say you know your history? I would love it if you show me the facts Columbus provided to prove that the Earth was round. Do you know how many times the sailors wanted to mutiny against him and get back to Spain? Can you imagine why?

It's obvious that Columbus believed the Earth was round but he did not know. He couldn't verify it either cos he went back crossing the Atlantic again. It's obvious that many other people believed the Earth to be round at that time. But nobody could affirm it until after Magellan's. Hence, it was Magellan's expedition what demonstrated that the Earth was round.

Eco, you are missing a few key points and constructing a very Portuguese-centric history here. Nothing bad about it, all of us -me in particular- make the same mistake hundreds of times. For example, Magellan's expedition made it obvious that the Treaty of Tordesillas was incomplete, because the Indies (East Asia) lie both to the West and the East of that famous parallel, depending on the direction you sail. That's why the Spaniards always sailed west -their part of the world- to reach East Asia, (read Philippines here if you wish). The eastbound route was Portuguese. The Spanish, like the Portuguese, always honored the Tordesillas treaty.

Another example: contrary to your interpretation, I never said the Spanish ruined the Portuguese trade but the Portuguese monopoly. The roundness of Earth allowed them to do so. That was my only point.

Again, I am sorry if I hurt you in any way with my comments. It wasn't my intention at all. Accept again my apologies. Don't forget however that you and I are both latinos, hence quite hot-blooded

[JayKay]

Re: Comunism as shuned government

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
One other more important subjects:

Who thinks Comunism should be the Portuguese shunned Government instead of Democracy?

I for one believe it is a better choice. The Portuguese had the choice to introduce Comunism and refused it.

Any other thoughts?

I agree! As i said before, Communism is best choice for the shunned Goverment for the Portuguese Civ! This was well proved by the 25th of November of 1975, when the attempt to instaure a Communism goverment in Portugal was stopped by the people and the military!

I would like to know why was the Democracy goverment even thought to be the shunned goverment! It has no logical IMHO!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[JayKay]

Re: Characteristics of the Nau and the beginning of teh Golden Age

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
About the characteristics of the Nau:

Can someone tell me the characteristics of the Caravel?

What do you think should be upgrated: Attack, Defense, Moves?

I vote for one increased move point.

The characteristics of the caravel in Civ 3 are:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 3
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 3

I think the best should be an extra move and an extra point in transport capacity!

What do you guys think?

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
If the Nau is the UU then we must chose a Wonder as the Beggining of the Portuguese Golden Age.

Prior to my (fruitless) debate with Jay Be I voted for Magellan's Expedition. What are your views?

As i said before, the Magellans Expedition will trigger a golden age in the Portuguese civ if the abilities of the Portuguese civ are Commercial and Expansionist! Aldo i don't agree with this wonder to start the golden age in the Portuguese Civ, you must realize that this is a game, and there are other wonders that can cause golden ages in other civs that don't have nothing to do with each other, for instances: The Collossus and the Iroquois!

So, i don't think this is a big issue! The wonders already exist, and if you don't want to add a new one especifically to the portuguese civ, then any with the portuguese abilities will do!

Possible Wonders for Portuguese Golden Age in Original Civ 3:

Great Lighthouse (Commercial, Expansionist)
Magellan's Expedition (Commercial, Expansionist)
Collossus (Expansionist) + Any Commercial Wonder
SETI Program (Expansionist) + Any Commercial Wonder
Copernicus' Observatory (Expansionist) + Any Commercial Wonder
Adam Smith's Trading Company (Commercial) + Any Expansionist Wonder
United Nations (Commercial) + Any Expansionist Wonder
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Ecowiz Returns]

Jay:

If some common cultural/atitude traits we seem to share is that ill temper they say is a mark of the latinos (looking at hooligans, though, I begin to wander if ... ). Other people, the ones that know me best may say I'm even more hot bloded than the common guy .

But let's get to business.

I believe I see your point. I would divided it in two items:

1. Magellan's Expedition let the world know that the Earth was round (and not only the scholars, who might allready have known - this you didn't say but I'm hoping you agree with me in this point ).

You are right in saying one thing is to believe it or to have a strong abstract notion that the Earth was round and the other thing is to prove it phisically as Magellan's Expedition did.

But by reading the contents of the first link I provided, I get a stronger feeling that the counselors of King Ferdinand "knew" the Earth was round. They also thought (correctly, I might had) that the Earth was bigger than Columbus proposed it to be. So the question I found in the link was not that sailing to the Indies (I will have something to say about that word next) was useless because the Earth was flat, but because of the distance.

I ask you to please note another thing. When the European Navigators begun sailing without the sight of shore as a guide, they begun using the stars as a guide map. On the Northern Hemisfere they had the Polar Star. But in the sea, they noticed the Polar Star disapeard in the horizon when they traveled South. That too would be an indication of the Earths roundness and the ship commanders (with knowledge of navigation the crew never had) had to know how to read the stars. Remember, in those days they believed the stars, other than the sun, were fixed. So, the only reasonable assumption had to be that the Earth was Round. (No reference here - only logic, and some well known facts, are backing this argument of mine)

A final point - Ptolomy solar system shown a round Earth, and that representation was supported by the Catholic Church.

So I tend to believe that, at least scholars and navigators knew the earth was round, and ultimatelly only they, and Kings, matter in the equation.

On other matter, the main reason (and I'm not saying there aren't others) Portuguese used the Cape Route was because they mastered themselves in sayling through the Coast of Africa, and not that they thought the Earth was flat (even if many of the crew people believed in it - heck, some people still believe in it! ).

2. By trading with the Phillipines, Spain broke the Portuguese Monopoly in the Eastern Seas. Let's called them (India, China, Japan, Philipines,...) that, for the sake of the argument .

My question here derives only from ignorance of Spanish History.
AFAIK India, along with China, were the target suplly markets - the ones everybody wanted. The Portuguese effort was to surpass the Italian Cities and the Muslim Traders in reaching India, in order to get their hands in the silk and spices trade. I never heard (and that is my ignorange in this matter) of any trade done with the Phillipines prior to Spanish colonization nor during Spanish colonization. What did they traded there?

One small provocation, though (don't take it badly, please): are you really trying to compare the trade done with India with the rest of the trade done in any other of the so-called Eastern Indies? For me it's like saying AMD is denting Intel's "monopoly" in processors.