Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Martinus
You can also enter GA peacefully. Besides if you get boosted-up Caraval in the age everybody else has sails (this is what I propose to rename the generic caravel) you should be able to win. It is just like with Man'o'Wars.

Is this true?

If so it would be great!

The Portuguese could have the "Nau" as a Special Unit, faster and carrying one more unit than the common Caravel (or Civ III equivalent).

It would be great if, through Trade advantage. the Modern Age Strategists can do better than the XV-XVII centuries Portuguese and drive the Portuguese Civilization to Ultimate World Dominance

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns


Is this true?

If so it would be great!

The Portuguese could have the "Nau" as a Special Unit, faster and carrying one more unit than the common Caravel (or Civ III equivalent).

It is true (or so I read somewhere, don't remeber where), but I never made it that way. It's kind like great leaders. They are there in the game, but if you don't fight they won't show up.
And then you can never rush any wonder. So it will be much harder for the Portuguese civ to build a wonder. And as I said, it could even not trigger the golden age!

Don't forget that a wonder usally takes up to 40 turns to build, unlike an unit, that only takes about 10. So if you want a civ to be fun, get a useful military unit to start its golden age. It's an effective trigger that way.

[Martinus]

Guys, you miss my point.

I am not saying Portugese (or anybody else) should have a non-military CSU. Caravel/Sail IS a military unit, like any other.

I was only saying that while Caravel is not probably one of the top-notch military unit, Portugese would also have a possibility of triggering GA by building relevant wonder(s).

It is something like Babylonians - their CSU is not very good, so the chances of it winning a fight is smaller than for, for example, German Panzer or Roman Legion. Yet it is still possible.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Martinus
Guys, you miss my point.

I am not saying Portugese (or anybody else) should have a non-military CSU. Caravel/Sail IS a military unit, like any other.

I was only saying that while Caravel is not probably one of the top-notch military unit, Portugese would also have a possibility of triggering GA by building relevant wonder(s).

It is something like Babylonians - their CSU is not very good, so the chances of it winning a fight is smaller than for, for example, German Panzer or Roman Legion. Yet it is still possible.

Martinus, don't get me wrong, but I think you're the one who's not getting my point!

Because:
1. Attacking with a Caravel/Sail is an almost sure loss. They are really weak, and Portugal (basically) never used its ships to attack anyone.
2. That relevant wonder that could trigger the golden age is much more expensive than an unit. So that is a handicap to every player who could be playing with the Portuguese.
3. I play with the Babylonians on the Apolyton's tournament game, and although Babylonians UU isn't all that great, there is still a lot of enemy ground units to attack! What I'm trying to say is that I'm still playing my first chieftain game with the french, and I have a privateer wondering around the oceans, and I just can't find ONE single enemy ship! If I was the English, I would have a lot of difficulty to start my golden age!
I don't want that to happen to Portugal.

[Martinus]

Ok,

But I am still for the caravel. If naval CSU works for the Brits (I have started GA with Man'o'War several times), it can also work for Portugese.

Besides, in over 50% of the games I was playing, the GA was started by wonder(s) not a unit. Portugese was a trade empire, not a military empire. The (relatively) weak CSU can reflect this.

[FALVES]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
(We should have had this discussion in... you know which forum ).

Uh... Where? I would like to intrude!

[Ecowiz Returns]

Begin the Roster

I still had'nt the time to start looking for my Portuguese History
books (wherever they are ) so I'll begin from memory.

Unfortunatelly I can't put much dating on this, because my memory for dates is awfull.

? - The Condado Portucalense in granted to D. Henrique, the Portuguese first King Afonso Henriques father, for great service to Castille in the fight against the Moors (is this how is is spelled?). GuimarĂŁes is the "capital" of the Condado.

? - D. Henrique dies. Afonso Henriques is fifteen (need to confirm this) so his mother becomes the ruller.

1112 - Afonso Henriques rebels against his mother, and, upon winning and encarcerating her, becomes the de facto ruller of the territory.

?- To aplacate Castille's fury, Afonso Henriques right arm man and teacher, presents imself and his familly in front of D. Afonso VI of Castille with a rope on his neck asking forgiveness toward the young Count and promissing it would be the last of his mischiefs.
And Afonso VI believed him!!!

? -Several battles in between, with both Castille and the Moors.

1143 - Treaty of Zamora - Portugal is recognized by Castille as a kingdom.

? - The Pope recognizes Afonso Henriques as the first King of Portugal. Afonso Henriques promisses a important annual tribute to Rome in exchange for his title but never pays a single coin.

? - Afonso Henriques conquers Lisbon. Martim Moniz, the son of Afonso Henriques right arm man, dies in the city doors preventing the Moos to close them and allowing the Portuguese army to invade the castle.

? - Afonso Henriques conquers Evora. Geraldo "O Sem Pavor" ("The Fearless One") becomes one of the first heroes of the new kingdom. Portugal is now more than twice (nearly threefold) his original size!

? - Afonso III, Portugal 5th King conquers the Kingdom of the Algarve. Continental Portugal has now it's current form (plus Olivença, "robbed" by the Spanairds during French Invasion - there is still no official border there, because, officially Portugal never recognized this loss).

D. Dinis - Begun the primal roots for the cultural development of Portugal - first universities (Lisbon, then Coimbra - known in Portugal as the "Student's City"); promotion of poetry and science; promotion of agricultural developments; ordered the plantation of Leiria's Pineyard (Pinhal the Leiria), source of much of the wood later used to build ships.

1383-1385 - First Independence crisis. D. Fernando dies without no male son and with his daughter married to the King of Spain. A noblesman revolt puts D. JoĂŁo, Master of the Religious Order of Avis and half-brother of D. Fernando, in Portugal's thrown.

During this crisis Portugal achieves one of the most celebrated victories against Castille in the Batalha de Aljubarrota.
Two legends are born:
- the "Padeira de Aljubarrota" (can anyone translate this?), a woman told to single handedly kill several castillans with her shovel;
- one of the Portuguese greatest heroes and said to be the strategist behind the victory with his "Square Tactics". Legend says he was protected by Virgin Mary and is still considered a Saint. He was Nun' Alvares Pereira and has given the title of Protector of the Nation.

D. JoĂŁo I:
Through is marriage and his prole, he is maybe the most important man in Portuguese Hystory:
- Married to D. Filipa of Lencastre (Lancaster, in England), forging on of the longest International Alliances ever. This alliance still exists, although sometimes did'nt work that well for the Portuguese side .
- Father of:
- D. Duarte - the next king
- D. Fernando - one of the first Portuguese martires in the North of Africa
- Infante D. Henrique:
The man behind the Technological Dominace in Navigation Portugal once had. Created the Escola de Sagres, here the future navigators leared the sea charts, how to navigate using the stars, and many other secrets. Knowlegde from Italy and the Moors was collected and tought. (Current Portuguese leaders could learn a thing or two with this guy )
- Afonso, the Count of Bragança. The House of Bragança that would rule in the Fourth Dinasty was born then.

The first expeditions in the North of Africa begin with him.

? - Madeira e Açores are discouvered and colonized.

D. JoĂŁo II:
Called "O Principe Perfeito" ,"The Perfect Prince" (Machiavelli stile ).
Legend says when he recieved his thrown he ranted: "My father left me to be the King of Portugal's Roads".
In his Kingdon he reposessed much of the land given to Portuguese nobleman, either by law or by force (killing his own brother in law in the process).
But he was also responsible for most of the Naval and Land Expeditions Portugal had. During his rulling the Portuguese explored the African coast, first beyond the Congo (making contact with their King) and ultimatelly beyond the tormentuous Cape (Cabo das Tormentas) that became known as Cape of Good Hope (Cabo da Boa Esperança). Some report that, by that time, a land expedition had allready reached the Cape also - it was sent to find, by land, the end of the African Continent.
The biggest achievement however was that of tricking Castille and the Pope, in the Treaty of Tordesilhas, to allow an extention of the "Portuguese Half of the World" a few meridians west, giving Portugal the control of Brazil!
The most amazing part of this story is that, at that time, no official document ever reported the existence of land there!
D. JoĂŁo II was the one to send Vasco da Gama in his journey to India, by sea. Unfortunatelly the King died (some say he was poisoned - live by the sword, die by the sword ) bofere his return.
D. Manuel was the one to get all the glory (maybe that's why he was called "O Venturoso" - "The Lucky One" ).
With this record, D. JoĂŁo II is the rightfull owner of the Portuguese Civilization Leader's sit, anytime!!!

Some other heroes:
Gil Eanes
João Gonçalves Zarco
TristĂŁo Vaz Teixeira
Diogo CĂŁo
Bartolomeu Dias ( I love this guy! He was the one to cross the Cape! Lots of luck in the midst, but lots of guts too! )
Pedro da Gama
Vasco da Gama
Pedro Alvares Cabral
Afonso de Albuquerque - the first Portugues vice-roy in India (a blood thirsty bastard some say - use the Devide and Conquer strategy to "steal" from the Moors the status of Prefered Commercial Partner with the Indian leaders (how were they called?).

Too much writen already. This is the part I know best though.
Next: The loss and retaking of the Independence. The colonization of Brasil. The loss of Brasil. The XXth century.

[Zealot]

Go Ecowiz!

[Trifna]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain

Originally posted by Zealot


Ok. Then let me say you one thing:
I've been on vacation in Spain, France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Germany. And you know what? The only difference in culture is the language and some of the food. That's why we have an United Europe. Like there are the United States. The way of living is pretty much similar!

But let me tell you also that 20-25 years ago, the Portuguese and the Spanish culture were very different! And if you go back 5 centuries, the difference is even greater. That's why 5 centuries ago the 2 greatest world powers were on the Iberian Peninsula. And 3 centuries ago the greatest world power was on the British isles.

It is the way of THINKING that makes a different culture. And if you say there isn't such a difference between German and French, or between French and English, I'm quite surprised.

Sorry I can't argue further, I'm stuck on time so can't search any further (yet). I don't know the Spanish/Portuguese and Portugal history enough.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Can't the Portuguese Golden Age start with a Wonder

Maybe my suggestion is all wrong (I don't know that much about CIV III, 'cause I still don't have it), but here it comes.

I read somewere that we can start the Golden Age with a Wonder.

This idea can only be backed if we could start Portuguese Golden Age with a Small Wonder: and that would be The Escola de Sagres. It could be like a version of Isaac Newtons College ie boosting science, because it was exactly what it made to the Portuguese knowledge. Only it should be possible to build sooner (don't know with tech would trigger it, but it should be some related to Sea Exploration).

What do you think?

One other question: do Great Leaders appear only in Unique Units? If so, than a "maritime" UU/Leader could only rush build Wonders in coastal cities, right?

[JayKay]

Re: Can't the Portuguese Golden Age start with a Wonder

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Maybe my suggestion is all wrong (I don't know that much about CIV III, 'cause I still don't have it), but here it comes.

I read somewere that we can start the Golden Age with a Wonder.

Yes, it's possible! By building Great Wonder(s) that satisfy the habilities of the human controlled civ! (Example: For the Egyptians, the GA will be triggered if they build the Pyramid, that satisfys both Religous and Industrous habilities; OR by building The Colossus - Religious, and the Great Wall - Industrous)

This idea can only be backed if we could start Portuguese Golden Age with a Small Wonder: and that would be The Escola de Sagres. It could be like a version of Isaac Newtons College ie boosting science, because it was exactly what it made to the Portuguese knowledge. Only it should be possible to build sooner (don't know with tech would trigger it, but it should be some related to Sea Exploration).

What do you think?

The ideia is good, the problem is that GA cannot be trigged by Small Wonders, but only by Great Wonders!

What we could do, is Edit an existing Great Wonder (or Add a new one), called "Escola de Sagres" that triggers a GA to specified Portuguese civ habilities! (Example: commercial and expansionist)!

What do you think of this habilites for the Portuguese Civ?

One other question: do Great Leaders appear only in Unique Units? If so, than a "maritime" UU/Leader could only rush build Wonders in coastal cities, right?

Great Leaders are may be made by any Elite unit that wins a combat! And the Great Leader is always a land unit! (The Great leader is an independent unit)
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro �lvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Martinus]

Yeah, the GA may be triggered by the wonder. By why not by Magellan's Expedition? After all he was Portugese (you have this even in your sig )

I am for adding new wonders, but only if the Civ in question lacks one. In this case it is perfect to use Magellan's

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Martinus
Yeah, the GA may be triggered by the wonder. By why not by Magellan's Expedition? After all he was Portugese (you have this even in your sig )

I am for adding new wonders, but only if the Civ in question lacks one. In this case it is perfect to use Magellan's

The problem with that is just that Magellan's Expedition was supported by the King of Spain.

It was kind like Columbus. The Portuguese King didn't want to support such kind of voyage, so Columbus turned out to the King of Spain, who was willing to support such journey.
One of Portugal's biggest historical mistakes....

[Ecowiz Returns]

So much to be said, so little time...

Originally posted by Zealot


The problem with that is just that Magellan's Expedition was supported by the King of Spain.

It was kind like Columbus. The Portuguese King didn't want to support such kind of voyage, so Columbus turned out to the King of Spain, who was willing to support such journey.
One of Portugal's biggest historical mistakes....

You're right about Magellan's Expedition not being sponsored by the Portuguese King. For me that's not a problem, because much of Magellan's Expedition was in the "Spanish Part of the World" according to the Tordesillhas Treaty (actually, the most dangerous one).

The problem, in my opinion, was Sid deciding to put Magellan's Expedition as a Wonder of the World instead of the Discouvery of the Maritime Route to India.
In my opinion, although much more mediatic, nowadays, Magellan's Expedition had only some scientific interest (unless the Spanish Kings were still trying to reach India by West ). Commercially speaking there wasn't much going to Spain from this route.

On the other hand, Vasco da Gama's Expedition opened a brand new route to India, shutting down all Moor intervention on Trade with Europe and much of the Italian Cities intervention too. Portugal became the gateway from which silk and spices from the Orient, gold and slaves from Africa and after gold and sugar from Brasil entered Europe .

For about 5 centuries the Cape route was the only route used to trade with Asia.

Adding to my argument is the single fact that Vasco da Gama's Expedition was chosen to be the starting Milestone of the Modern Era and not Magellans. So, that as the true Wonder of the World, in those days.

As for Columbus expeditions...well...
The problem is that Columbus was ofering a new route to India , while Portugal was trying to find one through the Cost of Africa (which many scholars in those days claimed do be conected by land with the South Pole ). And the Portuguese effort was not only by sea, but by land (expeditions were sent to find out the southern end of Africa).

By looking at the "strange" Portuguese proposal in the Treaty of Tordesilhas and the "discouvery" of Brasil in 1500, there are reasons to believe the Portuguese King already knew there was land in the West, in a position so far in the South that it could never be Asia .

So it was a question of choosing to double the effort or making a gamble. And the Portuguese King's gamble was a calculated one!

In my opinion, the Discouvery of the Maritimal Route to India was the just prize for a brilliant strategy , while the discouvery of a New World full of gold was just... luck!

Remember Columbus always clamed to have reached Asia (that's why American Natives are still caled Indians), and much of Spanish conquers in the Americas were motivated by the discouvery of the Eldorado, a stuff of legends that never existed.
So, the Portuguese King didn't made a mistake, and with so much bad spending of the great wealth the Portuguese obtained from trade, we can't say we missed all that gold that much.

The Spanish King, however, surelly hit the Jackpot!

[Trifna]

I went reading a little, and here is what I found about Portuguese, which seems to be quite a mix of MANY cultures that passed by in a few centuries... Seems like all Earth wanted to put its feet there.
It's from the Britannica Encyclopedia, search with "Portugal" keyword:

Although western Iberia has been occupied for a long time, relatively few human remains of the Paleolithic Period have been found. Neolithic and Bronze Age discoveries are more common, among them many dolmens. Some of the earliest permanent settlements were the northern castros, hill villages first built by Neolithic farmers who began clearing the forests. Incoming peoples—Phoenicians, Greeks, and Celts—intermingled with the settled inhabitants, and Celticized natives occupied the fortified castros. For 200 years these were centres of resistance to the Roman legions. Subsequently the Romans, Suebi, Visigoths, Moors, and Jews exerted influence on the territory. Portugal's situation at the western extremity of Europe made it a gathering place for invaders by land, and its long coastline invited settlement by seafarers.

They seem quite a mix of many to me...