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  • On another note, my key issue from yesterday's dramas was that I FEEL like Frank was accusing me of cheating &-whats worse-of using "lame" story-based justifications (his words, not mine) to back up this cheating. Now, who would NOT feel insulted by such a claim? Let it be known that I started writing my stories from DAY ONE, long before any pacts or alliances were ever drawn up. I have also tried to post AT LEAST one story every week, with the exception of the week where we had those APPALING connection issues, where I have sought to build strong reasoning for all my in-game actions. I should let people know that my 'Roleplay Style' of playing Civ4 applies as much to my SP games as it does to my MP games. I NEVER start a war unless its in my interests, I never SPY on a civ unless its in my interests & I never form alliances unless its IN MY INTERESTS. The only difference between SP & MP for me, really, is that I get a chance to tell a story which EXPLAINS what those interests are. In the case of Ethiopia, you have a very cultural & spiritual civilization, so my interests are in keeping my people true to their faith & protecting their cultural identity. As I see it, everything I have done so far has been in keeping with those interests. So if you come seeking to direct my people away from the true faith of Totus-Matraism, then I'm afraid you're out of luck. If I have to totally lose the game as a result, then so be it. Take a look at my story thread, though, & you will also see that in the eyes of my people, the Dutch embraced a belief in the All-Mother after we shared our knowledge of Mysticism with them. They then went & turned what was a loose set of beliefs into an Organised Religion but-from a story perspective-it was still the original All-Mother belief that we originally shared with them. We waited for this particular interpretation of the faith to spread to our lands but-before it could-a Great Prophet came along who showed us a completely DIFFERENT interpretation of the All-Mother Faith-Totus Matraism. For a spiritual civilization such as mine, its success is all the victory I need. We have a shrine devoted to it & 2 Religious World Wonders built in its Honour-not a bad effort for a so-called "3rd world nation". Thats another point, in both gameplay & roleplay terms, Nolan & Toni are bound to me via the Apostolic Palace-which unites all followers of my faith in a Religious Accord.
    As for Frank's claims of the 8vs3, well I never EVER recall getting any help from you Frank, or you asking for a trade in kind. Had you done so, then maybe I would be on better terms with you in this game. In other games, though, you would know that I have happily become your vassal in order to keep my head above water-its all about what is IN MY INTEREST for the current game & what makes sense in terms of geography & shared history. Had you been my neighbour in this game, maybe things might have been different. I am just sorry that you immediately see it as being a conspiracy. Personally, I don't take Civ4 seriously enough to take the time to engage in full-blown conspiracies !

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Asmodeous

      The 8v3 is a misnomer.

      It's really a 3v3.

      You've got the Islamic Bloc (AD/Frank/CS) and youv'e got the "other guys" Bloc (Nolan/Arv/Toni), each with a distinctive leader that's running it.

      Then you've got 5 or 6 little nations that are not in either Bloc that are trying to catch up and stay alive.
      So 6 civs with a defensive pact isn't a bloc?

      LOL!

      And the Islamics don't have distinctive leaders??!!

      It's at least 6 or 7 v3 plus English AI.

      You can't even name the "other guys bloc" because of poor story telling. It's really the "game-mechanics tech out win bloc"
      "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
      *deity of THE DEITIANS*
      icq: 8388924

      Comment


      • Also, for clarity can you all just call me deity (not AD or that other longer one)

        thx
        "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
        *deity of THE DEITIANS*
        icq: 8388924

        Comment


        • It's a shame Marcus (AL) is getting caught in the cross fire here because I think his civ and story line is commendable and along with perhaps Native America is offering the only storylines from " the other bloc"
          "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
          *deity of THE DEITIANS*
          icq: 8388924

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CyberShy
            I don't think there are insults in this thread.
            I think things have been said yesterday in the game that shouldn't have said, that's what happens in the heat of the moment.

            I don't think anybody called Toni a cheater, but maybe someone did in the heat of the moment. I wouldn't call Toni a cheater, though I think it's clear that trading techs with AI's is against the rules. And maybe we never made that clear to the new players, but Toni should've known that as a veteran. No need to start an academical study on the word 'trading'. These things have happened in the past, and maybe all of us have done things like this, therefor I would never call Toni a cheater, though I think that as a veteran (and a winner!) he should be a bit more responsible for the game as a whole. But that's not a rule.

            Regarding the 8vs3 alliance, that was my thing. I have to rectify that partly. After more study I conclude that Arvcran never traded his techs to that many civs. Only Toni traded his techs to 5 civs. The other 2 civs (AI) got some but certainly not all techs from Toni.

            Therefor there's certainly not a 8-block. My fault.
            Having said that, Toni is doing business on grande scale with 5 other civs. I don't think that the other 5 civs are all connected to each other, but Toni is.

            I won't say that's against the rules.
            I think Toni is a very smart diplomat. I know from earlier games that Toni always tries to be friends with me. He tried that this game as well, but I just decided to take another route.

            I think Toni is a very good player, and very keen in setting the right circumstances for his civ to win the ultimate builder game. That's not against the rules, or whatsoever.
            Having said that, I don't think that it's very good for the game.

            I think the game is most interesting if there are 3 or 4 alliances in the game. There must be competition, and in our game there's not much competition, except from the Islamitic Faction. I think games where all civs just play their own game are boring.

            It's not for nothing that the story thread is almost dead. There's nothing interesting going on. No diplomatic conflicts, no insults, no games, etc.

            And that's what I blame Toni for a bit, I think that what he does, how clever and smart it is, and I do certainly admire Toni as a good civ player and a very smart diplomat, isn't really good for the game. It makes the game boring, and removes the entire role playing part.

            I think that players, and certainly the veteran players, should be willing to stir things up now and then. Betray their allies, start a war, setup civs against each other, start an isolationistic approach. And sure, it's not a rule that you have to, but it makes the game much more interesting.

            I just hope that people understand what I'm trying to explain. I'm not blaming anyone for cheating or sneaky gaming. I just hope that players, and since Toni is most probably by far the best player among is mostly he, also want to take responsibility for the game.
            This is an excellent post Cyber.

            But I think it is effectively a 7v3 bloc.

            Note that Military Science has ONLY been learnt by Toni's Dutch but 7 civs have it including Russian AI. To spread this tech in this way at this point along with a defensive pact backs up all your points about Toni's style.

            Toni like to be mates with everyone in-game and out of game. He's a very sensitive guy and I like him.

            But this style does flatten games, unlike Frank who envigorates them.

            Posting is exponentially related to this point.
            "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
            *deity of THE DEITIANS*
            icq: 8388924

            Comment


            • Originally posted by deity


              So 6 civs with a defensive pact isn't a bloc?

              LOL!

              And the Islamics don't have distinctive leaders??!!

              It's at least 6 or 7 v3 plus English AI.

              You can't even name the "other guys bloc" because of poor story telling. It's really the "game-mechanics tech out win bloc"
              Uhm.

              1. No, it's not, the blocs are 3/3. You do not include 3rd world nations in a "power block" because they have no real power structure to speak of. Only 1st world and mostly developed nations coming into 1st world powers are included, which rules out pretty much everyone but the aforementioned 6 that I proposed.

              2. Except of those six or seven only three are of any real power, the rest of them are pretty much worthless and have such limited production that they won't be able to do much besides get steamrolled.

              3. I can't name it not because of poor storytelling, but because of the fact that that is exactly how the Islamic Bloc has pushed it to be on purpose. Islam vs the World.

              Me.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Asmodeous


                Uhm.

                1. No, it's not, the blocs are 3/3. You do not include 3rd world nations in a "power block" because they have no real power structure to speak of. Only 1st world and mostly developed nations coming into 1st world powers are included, which rules out pretty much everyone but the aforementioned 6 that I proposed.

                2. Except of those six or seven only three are of any real power, the rest of them are pretty much worthless and have such limited production that they won't be able to do much besides get steamrolled.

                3. I can't name it not because of poor storytelling, but because of the fact that that is exactly how the Islamic Bloc has pushed it to be on purpose. Islam vs the World.

                Me.
                Err you,

                Stop splitting hairs - the lesser powers all learn their designated techs, share resources and have capacity for war, even if by slaving. It IS a 7 power bloc = fact.

                deity
                "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
                *deity of THE DEITIANS*
                icq: 8388924

                Comment


                • Err, like if I attacked one of you I'd be at war with, uhm, 6 or 7 of you...
                  "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
                  *deity of THE DEITIANS*
                  icq: 8388924

                  Comment


                  • But it's not splitting hairs.

                    If you attacked me you'd be at war with 2 people. Myself and Toni. I have no other pacts with anyone, and the DP with Toni only came about when CS started denouncing the Native Americans publicly because of their views on UVA's shoving Islam down everyone's throats.

                    If we were getting royally stomped (which I, frankly, would be, because even with whipping I'll be lucky if I can get enough muskateers, my best troops, to even slow you down), Toni might ask for help and have to pay off the others somehow.

                    To be honest, I haven't been teching for them. I don't have the technological capacity to be able to tech for them. I tech like a retarded sloth. It has honestly been far more beneficial of a relationship for me than for Toni, though Toni got a few good spots of land out of the deal, sounds like what happened to the Natives in history.

                    Me.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Asmodeous
                      But it's not splitting hairs.

                      If you attacked me you'd be at war with 2 people. Myself and Toni. I have no other pacts with anyone, and the DP with Toni only came about when CS started denouncing the Native Americans publicly because of their views on UVA's shoving Islam down everyone's throats.

                      If we were getting royally stomped (which I, frankly, would be, because even with whipping I'll be lucky if I can get enough muskateers, my best troops, to even slow you down), Toni might ask for help and have to pay off the others somehow.

                      To be honest, I haven't been teching for them. I don't have the technological capacity to be able to tech for them. I tech like a retarded sloth. It has honestly been far more beneficial of a relationship for me than for Toni, though Toni got a few good spots of land out of the deal, sounds like what happened to the Natives in history.

                      Me.
                      Hey you

                      Effectively it is 6 or 7 civs more or less cooperating and all in a defensive pact with Toni.

                      You, I know for example, got Banking for that bloc so are you saying that you went Banking by chance and that it was not more or less a cooperative tech path development?

                      ---

                      [ Aside: Note that I was able to get Banking off you because I'd gifted you ages ago 3 major techs inc Alpha I think. ]
                      "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
                      *deity of THE DEITIANS*
                      icq: 8388924

                      Comment


                      • Also, on the one hand you can't say that Frank is over stating his case and on the other say that 3 or 4 minor civs don't make much difference!

                        Give us Islams Native America and Rome, PLEASE!
                        "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
                        *deity of THE DEITIANS*
                        icq: 8388924

                        Comment


                        • Hey Deity, I got Banking all by my lonsesome-as my next story will attest .

                          Aussie_Lurker.

                          Comment


                          • You were the only person I traded banking to, Deity.

                            I might have traded it to Nolan for another economic tech, but I don't remember.

                            Everyone else in the "tech bloc" already had it. I did actually research it by chance, because my economy was falling apart because I finally got to expanding.

                            Me.

                            Comment


                            • Anyway, like I said there is definitely a loose alliance of of 6/7 civs here regardless.
                              "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
                              *deity of THE DEITIANS*
                              icq: 8388924

                              Comment


                              • Military Science was only researched by Toni and all 7 civs have it plus a defensive pact.
                                "Old age and skill will overcome youth and treachery. "
                                *deity of THE DEITIANS*
                                icq: 8388924

                                Comment

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