Hitler as a leader

[Virdrago]

Then the real fun begins... because when you are arguing something subjective... there is no "right" or "wrong". Only opinions.

QFT. And this type of thread brings out some invective in those opinions. Maybe we should get back on topic... though that may start more problems.

[Pinchak]

Nah... I'm starting to see why Solver and Cyber warned about debating this subject.

It may be best left to rest...

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Virdrago

QFT. And this type of thread brings out some invective in those opinions. Maybe we should get back on topic... though that may start more problems.

Indeed. I think it's nuts to shift from a logical, mature debate to personal insults and invectives. If this thread doesn't get back on track really soon, it's headed for locked-dom, the eventual fate of all Hitler threads.

Anyway, it all comes down to this. It's been said before and I'll say it again, Hitler will not be in any official Firaxis game. If you want him, he's been made several times and can be downloaded over at teh CFC-land. (I even posted a link.) Otherwise, nada.

Furthermore, I recommend that any further discussion of Hitler's qualifications and/or Firaxis' issues therewith be taken to the OT. It started as a noobie's innocent question and quickly ballooned into typically caustic 'Polytubbie venom. Let this thread die in peace.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Pinchak
If by pwned you mean defeated, I don't guage a "win" or "loss" by how many people agree or disagree with me.

I simply throw out some contraversy, and see who bites.

In my books there's a simple word for that. You're trolling.

And forgive me my openness, but signing up to an internet forum - and even paying for extended services (which not many do) - and profoundly ruining your own reputation in just one thread has something very tragical. I for once pity you.

[Robert]

I think the subject was being discussed pretty well in this topic, I just don't understand why some people need to turn the argument into a personal argument again.

But since it was at least done in a somewhat more civil manner, and since the discussion itself is pretty interesting, imho, I'll leave the thread open.

Those people who only post in this thread to feed a flamewar may expect some personal attention if they continue to do this.

[Robert]

Pinchak: Yet, Hitler and the third reich are almost synonomus with Satan. So very taboo that they get banned from a game? Honestly, is what they did really so much worse than alot of other stuff that has gone on in history?

I think there are several reasons for that:

1. it's recent history

2. it happened in the western world

3. it happened in a somehow modern civilization

4. it was a war on a huge scale with many many casualities, most probably more then in any other conflict (not counting internal problems, like Stalin-Russia and Mao-China)

5. many many nations were inflicted, most probably more then in any other conflict

6. It was a genocide (or an attempt to) on the largest scale ever seen by mankind, 6 million Jews were massacred. Perhaps only the genocide on the Armenians (1 million casualities) comes in 'close'

7. It happened in a cruel systematic way, by the use of camps, and large scale administration

8. It ended with the first and only use of nukes ever.

North Korea's camps are most probably worse then the German camps, but it's far away from us, in a different type of civilization and on a small scale.

And regarding the American role in the war, I agree with most that Hitler's invasion of Russia was the turning point, but I also think that if the USA wouldn't have intervened the Warschau Pact would've been a lot bigger then it was now during the cold war.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Pinchak
Oh, about the Roman/Christian thing...

I guess i miss spoke. The two leaders in civ didn't do it, but the Romans did at a later date.

Therefore, I call for a banning of the Roman empire in Civ! As a Christian, I find it highly offensive that the producers of this game would allow an empire that killed my people!

This argument would make sense if people called for banning of German civilization as a result.

You do not catch flak for presenting unpopular views. You do that because your views are ignorant, contradictory and illogical. But then again we should have figured that out once you said you are a Christian.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by Martinus
But then again we should have figured that out once you said you are a Christian.

I don't think this thread needs this

[Robert]

I think that Pinchak only used the roman empire/christian thing as an example of why Firaxis SHOULD include Hitler. It's not as if he really thinks that the Roman emperors shouldn't be included.

[Solver]

Last chance, everyone. One more round of flaming, name-calling or anything else bad, and this thread will join the ranks of closed threads about the issue, and, of course, more action may be taken .

[Brutus66]

Originally posted by zeace
When Firaxis added Genghis to the game, no one cared. When they added Stalin, a couple of people briefly mentioned he was not a very good role model.

Very good point. It's an example of how egocentric our society is- we care about Hitler because it was a case of westerners murdering one another. Stalin, Mao, et. al., don't stir up the same controversy. I wonder if high school kids today have even heard of Pol Pot.

This has been an entertaining topic, (although I personally prefer the old boilerplate Spearman vs. Tank debate threads ) but I just can't resist adding this image:

[Martinus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I think that Pinchak only used the roman empire/christian thing as an example of why Firaxis SHOULD include Hitler. It's not as if he really thinks that the Roman emperors shouldn't be included.

Yes, but the argument missed the point by a mile, since the analogy he made was completely irrelevant and based on a strawman.

If the game included Nero or Caligula, or did not include Germany at all on account of Hitler's crime, may have had some point (albeit quite weak, considering the historical immediacy of Hitler's crimes, compared to those of Nero and Caligula). As it was, his point was totally clueless and irrelevant.

[Pinchak]

In my books there's a simple word for that. You're trolling.

No, just looking for some interesting debate. Not much point in having forums if everyone just agrees with each other.

profoundly ruining your own reputation in just one thread

If conforming to popular belief for the sake of reputation is a requirement, then i perfer it to be "ruined". In all reality, I really don't care what your opinion of me personally is. Fact of the matter is some people responding to this thread agree with some of my points. So don't try and play the whole "your a troll, ignorant, ruining your rep, etc..." bag with me. It's a cheap and easy out.

You do that because your views are ignorant, contradictory and illogical.

In your opinion.

I think that Pinchak only used the roman empire/christian thing as an example of why Firaxis SHOULD include Hitler. It's not as if he really thinks that the Roman emperors shouldn't be included.

Good observation. And once again i will admit i wrote too fast for my brain and cited the ingame roman leaders as the Christian murderers. However, the larger point to be made with this statement is that if one entity (leader, nation, etc...) is being banned based on his/their actions, then this policy should be carried evenly across the board.

Very good point. It's an example of how egocentric our society is- we care about Hitler because it was a case of westerners murdering one another. Stalin, Mao, et. al., don't stir up the same controversy. I wonder if high school kids today have even heard of Pol Pot.

That is one of the major points I'm trying to make. To paint Hitler up as Satan incarnate, and turn a blind eye to all the other examples is ignorant IMO. But hey, who am I to argue with what my opponents have been spoonfed since age 12 by those with money to influance opinion.

Yes, but the argument missed the point by a mile, since the analogy he made was completely irrelevant and based on a strawman.

No, I think you are missing the point. Forget specifics and focus on the underlying premise. It really isn't correct to say "oh, these people over here were murdered for their religious convictions, so we will ban their murderer. But all the other attrocitys (some argueably worse).... we don't have an issue with all that.

THAT is the definition of contradictory.

[Pinchak]

To steer this thread abuptly back on track, AND perhaps get some resolution....

Why should Hitler, one of the most influentual and well known leaders of all time, be excluded from the game?

Lets try to go beyond the marketing aspect, that Firaxis wouldn't be able to sell in Germany.

Also, keep in mind, the game allows slavery (civic), genocide (killing barb citys), the machine gun as a unit (probably responsable for more death than concentration camps), the Panzer tank (one of the biggest symbols of Nazi power), nuclear war (biggest threat to mankind ever), as well as a host of leaders/nations responsable for wholesale war, torture, oppression, and enslavement.

I direct this question to Sir Ralph and Alexander in particular, since their comments to date have either been simply stating that Hitler will never be in the game, or critical of me personally.

One final note... if you are going to cite all the moral wrong and destruction Hitler caused, please also justify the game inclusions noted two paragraphs above.


Now we will see who has achived "victory".

[UnOrthOdOx]

Ah...this old debate.

Got a story to go with this one.

Back in High School, I had a history teacher that liked to think outside the box. We did strange projects such as recreating civil war battles or building models of the Titanic. Things of that nature.

Then came the WWII project. Her classes were split up. Half got assigned as the Axis, half as Allies. I happened to be in the Axis half. Our assignment was to research propoganda each side used, create our own in the same style, and display it in the classroom, 1/2 side was Axis, 1/2 was Allies.

We had some foreign exchange students from various countries in europe that year, and I don't think I have seen folks more horrified, for it happened that the Axis side was opposite the door to the classroom, and thus visible from the hall between classes. I happened to also be a councelor at the time (student councelors were being tested out back then, don't know if it ever caught on), and spent quite a while with a girl in tears over seeing what she believe to be endorsement of such ideals.

Should Hitler be included? No.

Why?

There are people who feel extremely strongly on this. A very large number of people. They would be offended, and hurt to see such a thing.

As with any case where someone is offended in such a manner, it is our duty as a compasionate people to respect their feelings on that issue. We are not required to understand their reasoning, but we should at the least respect their position. And so I will.