Hitler as a leader

[Pinchak]

Well, I said I was done with this thread, but seeing the sheer number of times my name has come up, I feel compelled to comment.

Pinchak thinks he knows how Germans feel about it since he worked for a german company?

And been to Germany. In all honesty, I do find them a bit more distant (cold) then alot of other nationalitys. This of course (as with all sterotypes) does not apply to all Germans (which I already stated earlier). Being part German myself I feel somewhat at ease making this observation.

But you've admitted that you were trolling.

I never admitted I was "trolling", I was accused of it. MY definition of trolling is starting conflict just for the sake of starting conflict. In contrast to that, I feel strongly about the wrong of censoring Hitler. Just because I forsaw the moral right comming down on me for it doesn't make it trolling IMO.

I suppose it's not too difficult to argue that it is not Firaxis job to be a bastion of free expression.

Yes, but it would be nice if they had the integraty to choose leaders objectively.

When someone publicly speaks about adding Adolf in the game in a room with other living, breathing, people as in a game store or a diner I'll take their opinion a bit more seriously.

Just for the record, I would have no problem argueing this point in public. I have argued much more controversial issues in the flesh.

By contrast, many of his detractors fail to make any valid points. Rather they use the classic PC approach of lambasting the messenger rather than arguing the case. Sitting comfortably their high-horses, they accuse others of racism, stupidity, naivety (or a whole host of personal attacks), while confident that they are safe from any such attacks because they are on the “easy side of the argument”. That this side may be in the wrong does not seem to be important to them.

Don Imus

Another example of free speech being curtailed for the sake of someones "feelings".

Those girls did have nappy hair!

[Flhaus]

Whew. I was afraid this entertaining thread was dead.

This is most enjoyable reading the ***-for-tats here. It's all meaningless, but I await the next sylable anyway!

[UnOrthOdOx]

Free speech?

No one is curtailing free speech here. Is Firaxis free to put him in the game? Sure. They have chosen not to.

No, the question is whether he should be in the game.

Now, proponents take up this side that Hitler should be in the game based on the fact that he was quite possibly the most influential person in history. Something I have argued in favor of in a forensics debate before.

This has no real basis for whether he should be in the GAME however. How are the leaders chosen to begin with? It's always a bit of amusement to me to see who is chosen to represent differing civs.

Leaders are chosen based on who Firaxis feels most will enjoy playing.

Should Hitler be in the GAME then? No, for there are large numbers that do not wish him to be, and frankly would get pretty pissed if he was in, as I have previously stated. This doesn't maximize the audience or the fun factor in the game, thus he should not be in.

Should Hitler be in some kind of list of influential people in history? Absolutely, no doubt. That is not what CIV is, however.

[Aro]

Great post, UnO...

Very lucid, as always.

[Pinchak]

Leaders are chosen based on who Firaxis feels most will enjoy playing.

I would think there are more people out there who would rather play as Hitler than Bismark or Frederick. Sometimes it's fun to play the badguy in a game.

Let me ask you... in a WW2 game have you ever played as the Germans?

Just because you don't have a little gamepeice called "Hitler" doesn't mean you are not in essence trying to carry out the same plan (perhaps minus the concentration camps... unless you had a VERY realist WW2 game).

I don't agree with the arguments that he was left out because he would be a certain type of AI, or that no one would want to play him.

[Brutus66]

Right, I see now.
Having a mass-murdering maniac like Stalin or Mao as your civ leader is considered by the majority to be enjoyable, but Hitler is out of the question.
I understand the logic now.

[Kuciwalker]

That's exactly correct, Brutus.

[Virdrago]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
You can select leaders.

I do understand this, but if I want random civs, and the Germans happen to pop up, would I have the ability to censor just the Hitler leaderhead so any time the Germans are in the game, it isn't Hitler? I know some people can edit this out, but some people can't. Again, I'm not speaking for myself, but the casual player who buys Civ because it's supposed to be a good game may be unimpressed by Hitler showing up to talk to them in their first game on Settler. Especially if they are a player from Europe.

Good to see the posts are more reasonable. Good last posts, Unorthodox and Pinchak.

[Pinchak]

I hate to bring it up again, but...

What if I was a Russian player who had a family member killed by Stalin?

I buy civ, start playing, and all of a sudden the murderer of one of my family members starts trying to trade silk to me for clams?

Firaxis should take a stance one way or the other. Not pick and choose primarily based on what western civilization perceves as "more evil".

Excluding Hitler, but allowing other dictator/murders in the game is IMO more offensive than allowing them all, because it sends a direct message to game players from China and Russia that their ancestors deaths "didn't matter" as much.

Personally, I don't see any problem including ANY historic figure, as long as their impact on the world justifys their inclusion in the game.

[Kuciwalker]

What if I was a Russian player who had a family member killed by Stalin?

You're highly unlikely to be purchasing this game. At least, the number of people offended enough by Stalin to not by the game is sufficiently small as to not merit consideration.

Question asked, question answered.

[Pinchak]

You're highly unlikely to be purchasing this game.

Why? Do they not have computers in Russia?

Lets just assume for argument sake that indeed the Russians don't have computers and don't play games (chess anyone? )

Ok, I'm a Chinese player and I see Maos mug come up on the screen.

Or even better yet, Im a Japanese player and I see my civ getting nuked by the americans!

Bottom line is, by excluding Hitler and simultanously including Stalin, Mao, nukes, etc... it is sending a very mixed, and bias message.

Include them all, or exclude them all. Fact of the matter is Hitler is not the only cause in the 20th century of mass death and destruction.

[Kuciwalker]

Why? Do they not have computers in Russia?

They don't pay for that much software.

The fact of the matter is that Hitler, rightly or wrongly, causes real controversy and the others do not (the only arguments we see are this stupid **** on message boards from people who have already bought the game). That's the start and end of it. Now quit whining.

[Pinchak]

I'm not debating the matter of if it causes controversy, I know full well it does.

I'm debating whether it should be excluded. In my opinion it is simply an event in history, just like Stalin, Mao, and the bombing of Japan. Those are also very controversial and terriable events.

Once again Kuciwalker, you try to discredit and invalidate the discussion because you are obvously correct in all things, and you have already given your professional opinion.

If you don't think this is a good thread, DON"T READ IT, DON'T POST TO IT.

God, you remind me of those people who want certain programs on cable banned, even though they can block the channel.

Some day you will grow up, and realize that there are opinions out there beyond yours.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Pinchak
I'm not debating the matter of if it causes controversy, I know full well it does.

I'm debating whether it should be excluded.

Civilization exists to earn Firaxis money. If including Hitler would decrease profits then it should not; if it would increase profits then it should. It would most likely decrease profits [particularly in the opinion of Firaxis and Take-Two], therefore it shouldn't.

Once again Kuciwalker, you try to discredit and invalidate the discussion because you are obvously correct in all things, and you have already given your professional opinion.

Thank you for recognizing that I am obviously correct.

If you don't think this is a good thread, DON"T READ IT, DON'T POST TO IT.

There's an ignore list. If you really are that pained by my posts, use it.

God, you remind me of those people who want certain programs on cable banned, even though they can block the channel.

Some day you will grow up, and realize that there are opinions out there beyond yours. [/QUOTE]

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Pinchak


I would think there are more people out there who would rather play as Hitler than Bismark or Frederick. Sometimes it's fun to play the badguy in a game.

Let me ask you... in a WW2 game have you ever played as the Germans?

Why, Team Mercenary is proud to be playing as the Germans.

Just because you don't have a little gamepeice called "Hitler" doesn't mean you are not in essence trying to carry out the same plan (perhaps minus the concentration camps... unless you had a VERY realist WW2 game).

Hey, to me personally, they are all nothing but a bunch of traits, UUs and UB's. Which is why it's always amusing who gets chose for what and given which traits.

And, using this same logic, what would having a little piece named "Hitler" add to the game? Nothing.

I don't agree with the arguments that he was left out because he would be a certain type of AI, or that no one would want to play him.

And no one has made those arguments. Some want to play him or this thread wouldn't exist. But, there are also those out there who would be quite aggressively opposed to his inclusion in an official sense. To those that really want him included just for that little piece named "Hitler", he's out there for the downloading.