Hitler as a leader

[Robert]

(You can't pin the first one on germans.)

Not in the same manner as the 2nd one, and I wouldn't, but they do feel so anyway. They played a large role in both world wars. I'm not talk about being guilty, but about feeling guilty.

[Cyrus The Mike]

Originally posted by Alexander I
If you really want bad old Mr. H, CivFanatics has a very well-made Hitler leaderhead available for download (you can barely tell he was based on Napoleon).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...o=file&id=2138

AH HA! I found whats wrong. He doesn't have his schuashtica (The simbol of Nazi Germany)

I knew there was something wrong.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The bottom line is that I think that the German administration is handling the Hitler thing in a very wise way.

I think that the German, French and Austrian laws are rather counter-productive. Particularly in the cyber-age, the sort of censorship that goes on – or the ludicrous suggestion that holocaust deniers should be incarcerated – merely ensures that more people hear their crackpot ideas. The best way to publicise these things – as the Thais and Turks have recently discovered – is to ban the sites where they appear.

Now as to the question of Hitler’s role in history, I think there is no doubt that he had a HUGE global impact and this would probably justify his inclusion in the list of leaders. Including him as a leader does not show any support for his actions or beliefs any more than the inclusion of Stalin or Mao does so for them. The fact that a leader is included is probably a good indication that they did lots of bad things.

That’s just my view but I can see legal or commercial reasons why they could not have Adolf in the game. What confuses me a little is why Stalin gets special treatment and joins the group of three Allied leaders.

Maybe you also have to win a big war to be a cIV leader. But this would disqualify Elisabeth I.

[Solver]

Just to confirm: I'm also in here, and, well, you know I can be quick to ban .

Seriously, this is setting a record for how fast a Hitler/Stalin thread spins out of control... keep it clean.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by couerdelion
I think that the German, French and Austrian laws are rather counter-productive. Particularly in the cyber-age, the sort of censorship that goes on – or the ludicrous suggestion that holocaust deniers should be incarcerated – merely ensures that more people hear their crackpot ideas. The best way to publicise these things – as the Thais and Turks have recently discovered – is to ban the sites where they appear.

Could you please elaborate? I would be interested to hear details about these laws. I'm by no means a law expert, that probably shows, but I'm always eager to learn.

[Kuciwalker]

Sir Ralph: if you had the chance, would you start WW3? It's just those American troops still in your country stopping you, right? Otherwise you guys would be all Poland in weeks.

If you really want us to believe you aren't a Nazi, why did you fall into line when Hitler said so?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Kuken
Too controversial, and he was a crappy leader

He was a terrific dancer, though, and a better painter than Churchill, and he is in already.

Anyway, I'd like to see Hitler in, provided that his Diplo music was Springtime for Hitler.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Could you please elaborate? I would be interested to hear details about these laws. I'm by no means a law expert, that probably shows, but I'm always eager to learn.

I’m no expert either. I just know that these countries have “Holocaust-denial” laws which carry custodial sentences. Sending someone to prison for having extreme views is a very good way of making a martyr of them and of encouraging others to read more of their “historical” works. I think there was one German leader who also spent some time in prison and we all know what happened to him.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by couerdelion
I think there was one German leader who also spent some time in prison and we all know what happened to him.

That was for an attempt to throw over the government. I think that's illegal in most countries.

[Brutus66]

Yeah, he wrote a book about it or something, right?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Cyrus The Mike


AH HA! I found whats wrong. He doesn't have his schuashtica (The simbol of Nazi Germany)

I knew there was something wrong.

Elhoim added in the swastika armband before. I just didn't post the pic with it in out of deference to those who take umbrage at its presence.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
No.
(You can't pin the first one on germans.)

Ditto for that. As a German citizen, I say that I personally do not feel any sense of national guilt for the First World War.

If anybody was responsible, it was the great imperialistic powers of the turn-of-the-century era collectively.

[Martinus]

Alexander is right - the WWI was inevitable, as everybody involved was itching for a fight. If Archduke Ferdinand was not shot by a Serbian, they would have found a different reason.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by couerdelion
I’m no expert either. I just know that these countries have “Holocaust-denial” laws which carry custodial sentences. Sending someone to prison for having extreme views is a very good way of making a martyr of them and of encouraging others to read more of their “historical” works. I think there was one German leader who also spent some time in prison and we all know what happened to him.

I find this law stupid as well, but aside from that, what does this have to do with the topic?

To help you a bit: There is no law not to show Hitler in books or have him in games. There is very well a law that bans flags and symbols (like swastikas and SS runes), and I'm well aware that this is a controversal topic too. But in theory you could show Hitler's leaderhead without these symbols and you would be fine, law-wise.

In fact so it is in many other games. Take Panzer General, for instance. It had Hitler pictures in the intro. In game, the German flag was modified to satisfy the mentioned law, but aside from that you could play the German campaign without any problem. Or take Hearts of Iron and its sequels. Granted, Adolf Hitler was renamed to "Albert Hiller" in the political correct German CD version, but the first thing fans did was to fire up one of the numerous mods in the web and violà - back he was, with name and leader picture. And even with flag, swastika and SS runes, if you wish so.

I don't know it for sure, as I decided not to get overly involved into Civ4 (unlike Civ3), but I think the decision not to include Hitler into Civ4 is not due to an obscure (and non-existing) law, but just to avoid bad press about the game. It's not worth the trouble it would cause. Mind you Civ4 is not a history simulation (unlike, say, HOI) and it is not necessary to include everyone because it does not need to be historical accurate. I think the decision was an economical one. You sell more units this way, and that's what counts for a developer/publisher.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Sir Ralph: if you had the chance, would you start WW3? It's just those American troops still in your country stopping you, right? Otherwise you guys would be all Poland in weeks.

Shhh! What do you think where this ad was filmed?

If you really want us to believe you aren't a Nazi, why did you fall into line when Hitler said so?

What do you mean by "fall in line"? All I know about Hitler is, that he was vegetarian, had a moustache and built our Autobahn (which is a great thing!), the rest is not discussed in our schools and it is forbidden by law to talk about it. Do you wish to tell me there was anything else of note?