Console Wars IV

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
its also interesting that we get hung up here about 3 low rated casual games, when the UK chart ALSO includes Wii Fit, Mario Kart Guitar Hero: On Tour and Super Smash Bros. Brawl

I don't care about DS games, and the others are always expected to sell.

And Wii Fit isn't a game.

[Felch]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
the supply of coders able to write a quality game is inelastic

That's a silly argument though.

• These games (Carnival Beach Bull****) aren't being made by talented developers, by and large. When good designers make casual games, they make good ones. Civ: Rev is good, kind of a throwback to the first game. The Sims, as much as it's reviled, is popular for some unknown reason. So what you're seeing clogging the market is the drek that would be made by the bargain basement teams who always crap out commodity games. Now in addition to horrible movie tie-ins, they're making mini-game compilations, that's the only difference.
  
• The supply is bottlenecked, but not truly inelastic. Give the market a few years to produce trained and experienced workers, and they'll appear. As long as money is to be made, there are plenty of people who can do the job. Given that these are shovelware anyways, it's could actually be very good for the supply of workers in the game industry. Give them a minor league to work through, and there may even be some undiscovered genius to find in all the muck.

Originally posted by Asher
Felch, you're kidding yourself is publisher budgets aren't going to be shifting to go for the "trendy" new market.

The publishers investing in these are the same publishers investing in traditional games -- so if they go out of business, it affects "real" gamers also.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree in terms of the economics. There are a lot of people who spend their days trying to find lucrative ventures to invest in. If the casual games market proves reliably profitable, it can only help matters. Publishers matter a lot less than developers. Anybody can bring big piles of money to a party, but only a few people really know how to make a good game.

The facts as I see them are pretty simple.

• Casual games are cheap to make. They make these things for much less than AAA titles, and can afford to charge much less, sell fewer copies, and still come out on top. The low production costs mean that even if a couple titles bust, a publisher or developer won't be wiped out. Making AAA titles is far more risky. Flagship just basically got shut down after Hellgate bombed, Majesco had to shift to making casual games after Psychonauts failed in the marketplace, and there's a zillion other examples.
  
• Casual games expand the market. More money will flow into the games industry, because more money is being made on games. There are plenty of people who are happy to spend a few bucks for some Sudoku game, or to pretend to bowl, who would never play real games. With this increase in market size, you'll see greater stability and market diversity in the companies that make games.
  
• Good games are still coming out. I know there are more games coming out than I can find time to play. So it doesn't seem like there is even a short term consequence.

[DrSpike]

@ Nikolai trolling Asher.

[lord of the mark]

Speaking of the Wii, casual games, casual games with decent metacritic scores, third party games for the Wii, games as "art", and, of course, Jews, has anyone noted that BoomBlox now apparently has sold 450,000 copies and is still going strong and EA is officialy pleased with its long legs?

[El_Cid]

Asher will be happy as it also has a metacritic slot

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/boomblox

why Jews?.........ah Spielberg


EDIT:

Oh and an interesting article about XBLA etc:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=19620

I did air a few of these misgivings a few years back when the service was first introduced.
And i don't think this a problem just to do with XBLA+MS, Nintendo and Sony all want the same thing, a cheap(for them) flow of games to help sell more consoles. Everything else doesn't really matter in the world of console gaming.

So indie devs beware - the PC is actually your real friend

[Asher]

El Cid,

Why is the PC your friend -- compare sales of the XBLA version of these games to the PC versions, if they have them. They're not even in the same stratosphere.

I like how adding Xbox Live community games (XNA) support is a "strike" against XBLA in the article. What a tosser. Additionally, he doesn't seem to note that Xbox Live Arcade's royalty rates are highest among PSN and Wii unless MS is spending their own ad dollars to promote your game, at which point the royalties are less but the volume would go way up.

The reason MS has begun delisting games (note that they are only delisting games virtually no one is playing or buying) is because the service is TOO successful in that respect -- there's too many games out there that it becomes overwhelming both to the interface and to gamers looking for a game to play.

All in all, this has **** all to do with the PC and the article itself is utter crap. I like at the end that he'd rather work with Nintendo -- I urge him to compare sales of the best WiiWare game to your AVERAGE Xbox Live Arcade game. WiiWare isn't too popular, and the reason should be obvious but eludes the author: storage is crippled on the Wii. You've got 512MB to store games you wish to actively play, and that's it. As soon as you've got a couple WiiWare games -- not to mention any Virtual Console games -- you've got to deal with the bull**** of manually managing your storage. Not to mention Nintendo's WiiWare development tools are nowhere near as good as MS' XBLA.

----

Re: Boomblox, it's a rare example of a Wii game where genuine thought has gone into it. I wouldn't be upset if more Wii games were like that, but for every Boomblox there's 150 "Iron Chef America COOKOFF" and "CARNIVAL GAME FUNBOX OF JOY".

[Felch]

Originally posted by Asher
The reason MS has begun delisting games (note that they are only delisting games virtually no one is playing or buying) is because the service is TOO successful in that respect -- there's too many games out there that it becomes overwhelming both to the interface and to gamers looking for a game to play.

Please tell me these are mostly the Gradius clones.

How many scrolling shooters do we need? XBLA and Wii keep crapping them out, week after week. Those piss me off the same way the carnival games annoy you.

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by Asher
El Cid,

Why is the PC your friend --

Because it is an Open platform, for the time being, until MS can solve that problem

[Asher]

Originally posted by El_Cid


Because it is an Open platform, for the time being, until MS can solve that problem

How is it an open platform when MS controls all of the APIs and environments, just like on the Xbox? The PC's development follows the direction MS dictates.

It's true that you can publish however you want and charge whatever you want on the PC, but that's also why the PC isn't as healthy as the consoles...customers don't like the disparity and randomness of the installation, configuration, and maintenance of games. There's far less quality control and consistency on the PC -- that's the problem with an "open" platform, and the problem with that is they're only nice in theory.

If you want to see the true advantage of an "open platform", look at Linux on the desktop and Linux gaming. That's an open platform...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
Why is the PC your friend -- compare sales of the XBLA version of these games to the PC versions, if they have them. They're not even in the same stratosphere.

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by Asher

How is it an open platform when MS controls all of the APIs and environments, just like on the Xbox? The PC's development follows the direction MS dictates.

".........for the time being, until MS can solve that problem"

Originally posted by Asher

It's true that you can publish however you want and charge whatever you want on the PC, but that's also why the PC isn't as healthy as the consoles...customers don't like the disparity and randomness of the installation, configuration, and maintenance of games. There's far less quality control and consistency on the PC -- that's the problem with an "open" platform, and the problem with that is they're only nice in theory.

For me the biggest problem with the PC as an 'open' platform to develope on is the issue of piracy, and for me that's the main area where consoles by nature are streets ahead.
That doesn't mean I wish to see the 'consolification' of the PC as a development platform, which is I suspect where MS would like to take it if they could(and are step by step - see vista).

Originally posted by Asher
If you want to see the true advantage of an "open platform", look at Linux on the desktop and Linux gaming. That's an open platform...

And apart from you trying to set up some silly "I win!" trap for me to trip into, your point is not all bad. Open GL/Open AL etc and a more widely accepted and polished distro of the linux OS is actually going to be good for gaming on the PC, one day when we are all dead and forgotten

A true fully Open and widely used PC with the power of digital distribution will save PC gaming, and maybe all gaming?

And in the fairness of 'balance' to the other article I linked to we should look at this link:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=19607

[Asher]

Originally posted by El_Cid
And apart from you trying to set up some silly "I win!" trap for me to trip into, your point is not all bad. Open GL/Open AL etc and a more widely accepted and polished distro of the linux OS is actually going to be good for gaming on the PC, one day when we are all dead and forgotten

A true fully Open and widely used PC with the power of digital distribution will save PC gaming, and maybe all gaming?

Evidently you are not keeping up...OpenGL is dead. Even John Carmack, historically OpenGL's #1 cheerleader and driver, is using DirectX in id Software's upcoming game.

[El_Cid]

And let me guess, is that game a high end 3D title? Are those the only games that we need? Are they the only games worth making/playing?

Open GL is perfectly adequate for any game I would want to make/play. It's true most games I play use DirectX(9.0 and under), but that's the nature of part of the problem of PC game development.

[Asher]

Originally posted by El_Cid
And let me guess, is that game a high end 3D title? Are those the only games that we need? Are they the only games worth making/playing?

Open GL is perfectly adequate for any game I would want to make/play. It's true most games I play use DirectX(9.0 and under), but that's the nature of part of the problem of PC game development.

OpenGL only does graphics. DirectX does a LOT more that you seem to be completely ignorant of.

There's a reason why it's far and away the #1 tool for game development.

[El_Cid]

hmm I think you misunderstand me. I'm not having an MS vs Open battle with you here Asher.

DirectX is indeed the most complete package, what i'm saying is you don't only need DirectX for game development, there are other choices and that is a good thing rather than a bad thing.

When I'm carving a wooden bowl I don't use just one chisel type - if I did then my bowls might never be as good as they can be. More tools = good etc.

Unfortunately MS and various proprietary technologies(such as consoles) seem to be all about restricting or at the very least controlling the choice of tool you might like to use. And that's not my thing baby nor many other peoples, as amongst other things, it can hinder the creative process.