Now we descend into Oblivion ... (pt 3)

[Imran Siddiqui]

That was my argument (well not the no immersion part... I can imagine a good story can be very immersive), but the other person totally disagreed. As I said, there is immersion in a good story as you play the 'role' of the character you are guiding on the pre-designed path. It isn't fair to say you are simply 'watching' the character, as you do control that character in movement and combat.

[ZargonX]

It isn't fair to say you are simply 'watching' the character, as you do control that character in movement and combat.

True, but I guess my point was that you don't control the "character" of your character. For instance, in something like Fallout, you can be a goody-two-shoes or a badass killer. In a Final Fantasy game, Cloud will always be the same Cloud, no matter how many times you play the game.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by ZargonX
True, but I guess my point was that you don't control the "character" of your character. For instance, in something like Fallout, you can be a goody-two-shoes or a badass killer. In a Final Fantasy game, Cloud will always be the same Cloud, no matter how many times you play the game.

But that brings up the question of whether playing a 'role' means you control that background of that character? You are dropped in the middle of a story (ie, you don't control the character from a small kid), so the character has had a life before (you assume). Can't playing a 'role' mean you take over for a character who has already come up with a personality in the years of growing up that you weren't around for? After all when an actor steps into a 'role', like say James Bond, doesn't he have to take the prior characterization as it is?

Ah, but then it starts getting philosophical .

[snoopy369]

I'm somewhere in between here; I don't like FF much because of the lack of options. Indeed, you can't choose between being a good guy and a bad guy, and you really don't have much choice over how Cloud behaves; it's not 'role playing' per se, it's doing his fights for him, basically. Thus it's really a fighting sim

[Nostromo]

Not to mention that FF doesn't have a physics engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyHiIeBsc9E&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ejoystiq%2Ecom%2F

[El_Cid]

I agree that the rich story telling aspects of many japanese RPG's has its pro's and con's, and in comparison games like Oblivion do give us something extra.

I just worry looking at the progression of the TES games they are in danger of heading down the Japanese rpg route - don't get me wrong, i actualy do like Japanese rpg's(Baton Katos was a great game), but i'm glad that the uk and the usa have developed the 'open ended' play style, its a rare gameing tradition and imho one worth developing further.

Hey! and Civ1 was a great game - i prefered it to Civ2 also(but hot-seat/mp Civ2 gaming beats single player Civ1). As with all things in life i guess we all have different prefrences, which is a good thing - i hope gaming doesn't become so sterile and 'samey' that we loose the prospect of having people disagreeing on gaming forums in the near future.

We could end up in a place where the industry shapes the kind of people who play games and post on forums - they will all love all the games, that will all be the same

[ZargonX]

I guess I'm just an adherent to the "old school" definition of role-playing, with the player themselves creating the character. That's what I loved about Wizardry VII... creating this party, and then having the freedom to infuse them with whatever personality I imagined.

Don't get me wrong, I love Japanese-style RPGs as well; some of them are among the best games I've ever played. But, I still like my traditional role-playing on the PC, you know

[Kuciwalker]

An RPG without choices is called a movie.

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
An RPG without choices is called a movie.

Amen! i'll add this:

Any game without choices is worse than a movie.
Any game trying to be more like a movie is worse than a movie.

These should be in the ABC of game designers course books.
You can see where this is going right?

[Nostromo]

I never played a japanese rpg. Well, I tried once a Final Fantasy game for, like, 10 minutes. And that's about it. So if I understand, you don't get to create a character in Final Fantasy games. But do you get to play, to some extent, the character that is given to you? For example, in Planescape: torment, which is one of the best CRPG's ever, you don't get to create a character, but you can tweak him up to certain extent (make him brighter or stronger), and play the Nameless One.

[asleepathewheel]

some final fantasy games you get zero choices-final fantasy 4, for example, characters come and go without your choice. Others like 5 you can have characters with specialties (that was my favorite). other games like 6 (and most of the others) have many characters that you can form parties from, but the characters themselves are static.

best crpg-xenogears, though they bungled the second disk. first disc is amazing. fantastic story.

[Rasputin]

i guess role palying can also be where you have no choices , but actually just act like the character is supposed to be. as in mentioned above an actor playing a role scripted by someone else.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Rasputin
i guess role palying can also be where you have no choices , but actually just act like the character is supposed to be. as in mentioned above an actor playing a role scripted by someone else.

Yeah, it depends on how you define 'role' and for different people, it means vastly different things. I wish we had a big Japanese RPG player on these boards to get another view of things.

[El_Cid]

I've currently been playing Fire Emblem - its got that japanese rpg flavour(its really more a tbs game at its core though) in that you get to control a character(the main hero) and pick up various new characters as you go through the missions that unfold the game story. Your characters level up and get more powerfull as you progress, sometimes one dies and you either live with it and use another from your pool, or re-load the mission and try again. If the main characters die its game over.

Its a good game, even though it doesn't offer anywhere near the freedom that a game like Oblivion(or older TES) does.

I think maybe the japanese can get away with making all these scripted rpg's because they are kinda like an extension of manga?

What i mean is i often find the themes dealt with in japanese rpg's are manga like(evil technology vs good 'nature' for example) and also the art style and presentaion is pure manga. It works very well as a story telling method, and with the added interest of the players interactiviy in the gameworld makes for many really good games.

Still much as i like a really well scripted and nearly liniar japanese rpg's, i'm glad that open-ended rpgs do exist as well. So i really hope TESV continues with 'more' of the same.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
some final fantasy games you get zero choices-final fantasy 4, for example, characters come and go without your choice. Others like 5 you can have characters with specialties (that was my favorite). other games like 6 (and most of the others) have many characters that you can form parties from, but the characters themselves are static.

best crpg-xenogears, though they bungled the second disk. first disc is amazing. fantastic story.

I liked FF 6 a lot, some characters are required to get, but some aren't. Also, you can choose how they develope somewhat.

JM