Now we descend into Oblivion ... (pt 3)

[Imran Siddiqui]

Due to the costs involved(because of graphics+voice acting?) they have to make mainstream games to get as many people to buy it as possible. This all links in to the convergence of the games+movie industries. I guess what it says about society is that by big buisness the 'mainstream' market is considered pretty stupid, thus we get a 'dumbing' down of the products it produces because someone has decided 'we' can't handle a little complexity?

Who said people can't "handle" anything? It seems to me the common (& incorrect, IMO) retort is that they are playing to the stupid people. I see a lot of different races & classes to choose from in the beginning of the game. There are different ways to accomplish quests. All they did was got rid of the stuff that perhaps 5% of the potential audience would rather see. Not because they wanted to cater to 'stupid' people, but because they didn't wish to waste their time balancing something that most people wouldn't give a damn about doing.

It seems to be the common insult of the grognards that any streamlining is for stupid people's sake. I've heard the same complaint leveled at CivIV for streamlining certain things.

It's about time to think beyond the stereotypes and realize that various options or skills require far more testing and balancing and that takes time and money. Why have a 'medium armor' skill when it really just adds a layer of uncessary complexity, when you can have some distinctions just by using 'light' and 'heavy', which tends to make more sense considering the way you increase skills in these games.

[Traianvs]

I'm about to start playing Fallout 1 (and Fallout 2) for the first time. Let's see how this compares

[Nostromo]

Not to mention that often less is more.

That said, I agree with El_Cid up to a certain point. I would love a classless character system like GURPS. What I like about GURPS is that you're not stuck with the usual archetypes of heroic fantasy. Of course, you can play a warrior or a a rogue, if you wish, but you can also play a private dick, a millionaire drug addict or even a mentally challenged God emperor.

Here's how it works:

GURPS was one of the first role-playing games in which characters were created by spending points to get characteristics, skills, advantages, getting more points by accepting low characteristics, disadvantages etc. This approach has grown increasingly common in part due to the success of GURPS.

And not everything is combat related. You can choose your social class, your wealth, your quirks. You can get more points by choosing to be a drug-addict, an alcoolic, being blind...

Of course, I realize it couldn't be implemented as is. But going in that direction would be a nice change of pace.

I hear Fallout was originally based on GURPS, but then it all crashed for some reason. I wonder how much remains in the system they finally used?

[Quillan]

Not a bit of it. The system they wound up using for Fallout bears absolutely no resemblance to GURPS. While not entirely similar, it bears some resemblance to the old Chaosium system used in the first Call of Cthulu game.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And, btw, the Fallout system is called the SPECIAL system (Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, and Luck, each of which you can put character points into... its frightening I still remember that).

Though the best part of the Fallout system (and yes, it had a ton of skills) were the perks

[El_Cid]

Fallout - now there is a great game duo.......and what happened to the third version......could it be this 'mainstreaming'......was it a better game for it? In nearly ever game series we can see this happen - and i'm sure most of us would agree it's almost never been for the better of the game. maybe the sales were better, probably because of a console port? but the game?.........this IS my beef with OB.

[Imran Siddiqui]

In nearly ever game series we can see this happen - and i'm sure most of us would agree it's almost never been for the better of the game.

*cough* CivIV. And I'd have to argue that Baldur's Gate was a far more 'mainstream' RPG than just about any of Interplay's other RPG.

And Fallout3 is still in development, by Bethesda.

[El_Cid]

Fallout3 - and the current Bethesda.......i wonder what it will be like....maybe worse than Tactics?

Here is a cool article from Ken Rolston, lead designer of Morrowind and i guess a senior bod on Oblivion?(i really cant be bothered to load OB on my pc again just to check as there are no credits in the game manual)

http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA2NCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

An interesting read i found. Sad to hear him go as i feel he is exactly the kind of guy i want making computer games, more so than the people taking over from guys like him.

But Happy Retirement to Ken Rolston - its probably a good time for him to get away from the mainstream

[Imran Siddiqui]

Rolston is a wacko... he prefers the original Civilization to the later editions?



But then I've really never understood the grognard mentality, I guess.

Though I'm not entirely sure why you give him the thumbs up. He believes the world leveling with you in Oblivion was a great idea, something you have had issues with.

[ZargonX]

....maybe worse than Tactics?

Hey, some of us liked Tactics!

[Rasputin]

wel ldespite so many complaints about it, i love Oblivion it is my first real addictive RPG and whilst i dont feel i am playing a role it is enjoyable.

[Imran Siddiqui]

An interesting argument I ran into a while back was someone telling me that Japanese RPGs are truely the ONLY Role Playing Games. In those RPGs, you were playing the role of a character in an intricate story. It was mapped out, but you were that character as a result of such detail in the storytelling. American RPGs, with the freedom of choice reduced the feeling that you were playing a role in a story. It was more of a freeflow and the story was simply something to advance gameplay, not something you were an integral part in.

I disagreed, but an interesting alternative POV.

And FWIW, I think most American RPGers can say that Oblivion is more RPG than a Japanese RPG.

[Rasputin]

i would like a game that made my actions and choices more relevant,

in oblivion ican do all the quests, i shouldnt be able to a fighter guild and part of the bortherhood.

i am a good guy who kills and steals.

that freedom is what prevents this being a greatRPG. the consequnces of my choices are all thats missing

[Imran Siddiqui]

in oblivion ican do all the quests, i shouldnt be able to a fighter guild and part of the bortherhood.

Well, the brotherhood is a secret evil society. So it would make sense that the Fighter's Guild wouldn't know of your evilness.

[ZargonX]

In those RPGs, you were playing the role of a character in an intricate story. It was mapped out, but you were that character as a result of such detail in the storytelling.

I would have to disagree with that. In Japanese style-RPGs, you are watching a character run through a pre-defined story. You have no say over what that character is or does, thus no immersion, thus no role-playing