Neverwinter Nights - Capitalist Utopia

[DrSpike]

Ever beta tested a major game like this Ralph? If not, you are in for a shock.

[Harovan]

I've beta'd major games of other genres, but it's the first time I beta test a MMORPG. So I guess I'll be shocked. What makes it so special, btw?

[DrSpike]

It's a weird world, where the rules can change daily, if not more. And stuff not being finished is just freaky. And then, at the end, you have to wipe your character. If you are anything like me that is quite hard.

Still, the game looks interesting, and report back!

[Harovan]

I know my character will be wiped. That's why I created it as a girl with a pretty stupid name; not the name reserved for my badass character in the game after release. Just making sure the farewell will be as easy as possible.

As for rules changing daily, well, that's the point of a beta. I would be upset if it were otherwise, because that would mean our work in the beta is pretty much in vain and does not reflect on the dev's decisions.

I'm mainly interested in VG because the makers announced, that it's NOT a game designed for the mass market and hence, will NOT cater to the lowest possible level of players in order to get the highest possible sales numbers. I don't know how they will fare with that philosophy, though, and if they'll be able to keep it. After all they have Microsoft as publisher.

[duke o' york]

If you fancy playing some Folderol tonight Sir Ralph, then audit planning has driven me to distraction.

[DrSpike]

Almost any game beats audit planning.

[duke o' york]

True.

Thanks to some high-powered friends, I am now 3k from level 15, and worthy of playing alongside you Sir Ralph. tomorrow night then? Name the time - I should be here from 7 CET.

[Harovan]

Ok I'll be there. My character is parked in Dwar proper, iirc.

[Harovan]

By the way, Spikey, I came across some thoughts of Brad McQuaid (the Sigil CEO and mastermind behind Vanguard), and they certainly sound as if VG won't be your game in any regard :

My thought is that it should take a person working exp hardcore for 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, about 3 years to max out to the top level. Make 1000 levels or more **EDIT** (This is a lame idea, we dont need 1000 levels, instead award AA points at certain points within the levels to give interim advancement within each LONG level, same dif though, long long level curve) **End of EDIT** if that is what it takes to get the proper time scale before people start maxing out. Now of course this means if you play 4 hours a week you are not going to ever reach the top, well tough.

There can be many things to do before the top level, unlike EQ. There can be raids with lower levels in mind, hunting can actually be fun unlike the EQ camp fests that felt more like work. The game can be enjoyed on the journey, not only after you max out such as EQ. This is all in the development, if a game is not fun until you are the maximum level then the game has been built wrong. But if you build a game where virtually anyone can get to the maximum level in a years time you are going to end up with all the headaches EQ had and be forced to start the endless level-based expansions that inevitably destroy the world.

This and more can be found on Brad's homepage.

Sounds like it's going to be a royal pain, isn't it? Still there are scores and scores of people who anxiously await it, well knowing, that it will be hard - or let's call it epic. After all the dev's promise is, that the journey will be a big part of the fun, and it is not necessary to rush to the end level to have fun and challenge with raids and epic quests. EQ2 started out with this promise, and lived up to it over the first 4-5 months. But since this time it's been steadily WoWified, you can max out your character in 2 months now (or 1 if you've got no life), and it completely lost it's appeal to me.

Sorry btw all you NWN folks for the constant threadjack, just wanting to throw Spikey a bone . I don't want to make an own Vanguard thread, which will either sink without any response or be jacked into a WoW thread in no time.

By the way, from what I know of you so far, VG might be a game for you Duke.

[DrSpike]

Well I'm open minded about how the genre can progress. If the game can be made so that it's continuously interesting then a very high level cap can work. This and Warhammer are games I'm watching. I might (time permitting) also look at your favourite EQ2 at some stage. I've never played an MMO focused on grouping from the start.

My beef with high level caps is more that if you are confident your endgame is a good one then you needn't make the grind to it unnecessarily long. However, perhaps the goal is for the gameplay to evolve rather than the level caps to come down....................

And yeah, sorry Duke.

[DrSpike]

Not sorry enough though I guess!

I have to add - don't get your hopes up too high as there are tonnes of games that have been hyped and everyone was waiting for that turned out to be big steaming piles of poo when betatested. D&D online, Darkfall and Dark and Light were three such games. Not that many months ago these were heralded as the salvation of MMOs. Now.......................

And I have to push you on the EQ2 comments too. How has the game been WoWified? It is still the case that most progression is through grouping right? In WoW, before the endgame, it is basically a solo game. If we are just talking about the endgame being reached faster these days that sounds like a good change.

As long as there are enough endgame raids that is. From looking through EQ2 forums it seems a lot of the endgame raid content is quite new, and rather buggy.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Not sorry enough though I guess!

I have to add - don't get your hopes up too high as there are tonnes of games that have been hyped and everyone was waiting for that turned out to be big steaming piles of poo when betatested. D&D online, Darkfall and Dark and Light were three such games. Not that many months ago these were heralded as the salvation of MMOs. Now.......................

I know. So far Brad and his crew were consistent throughout development in their thoughts and concepts, though. He's an idealist, a real enthusiastic game developer. My only fear is Microsoft as publisher.

And I have to push you on the EQ2 comments too. How has the game been WoWified? It is still the case that most progression is through grouping right?

Not at all. You can solo all your way through to level 70 if you want. And in fact, many do. There was a time (mid-2005), when people even petitioned to add more group mobs, because the little amount left was highly contested between too many groups.

EDIT: To give you a rule of the thumb: Most things (I'd say 2/3) outdoors are solo encounters, so outdoor areas are where you solo. You'll find some group mobs (tagged as such - how lame is that?) and the occasional raid encounter there though, watch out and get your adrenaline kicks! Dungeons like caves, mines, temples, crypts and such are largely group areas. You don't go there solo and if you do, you'll probably not last much farther than the entry area.

In WoW, before the endgame, it is basically a solo game. If we are just talking about the endgame being reached faster these days that sounds like a good change.

EQ2 has good content, and many of it, for all levels. Including raids and epic (heritage) quests. My main gripe is now, that levels fly by so fast that you're literally doomed to leave stuff out. When I played on the new PvP servers, I remember a night in Runnyeye (a mine full of gnolls), where I gained 2 levels in like 6 hours. That was pretty sad.

As long as there are enough endgame raids that is. From looking through EQ2 forums it seems a lot of the endgame raid content is quite new, and rather buggy.

They always whine on the forums. Don't put too many weight on that. Like on the "I can't beat it, hence it's bugged" crowd, my ass. Fact is, due to increasing MUDflation (which is rampant in EQ2 - 2 XPs already out) most people got better and better equipment - so the raid mobs had to be made harder and harder to keep them challenging. This means you have already to have a good equipment in order to beat them - tough time for newcomer havenots. The problem is not the raid content... the real problem is the MUDflation.

By the way, EQ2 is not "my favortite" game anymore, I'm pretty much done with it. It started out as a nice, epic game and ended up easy as cake. The only advantage left over WoW is the slightly more mature and professional audience, but that may be due to the fact, that I play on a "RP preferred" server... the real level of RP on which is very questionable, however - not that I have a problem with that, as I am not really a RPer either.

[Harovan]

By the way, VG will have a casual part too - I repost this part of the FAQ:

Additionally we will have areas that are more geared for one of the categories: casual, group, and raid. The casual areas require less of a contiguous time commitment and you don't need a full group. The grouping areas, well, require you to group. Think classic, old school grouping. Then the raid areas, well that's pretty obvious.

Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region.

[DrSpike]

Well that's already true in both WoW and EQ2. However, with a higher level cap it might be worth spending more time getting those items. In WoW there isn't really as you outlevel your rares so fast, until the endgame starts.

[Harovan]

Same in EQ2, which is pretty sad.