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[-Jrabbit]

Nope, the feedback I got is that nobody was really interested in Witten.

Still doesn't explain why you would drop a consensus starter.

They all said they were reasonable offers. (including you).

1. An offer being reasonable is not an offer accepted.
2. Truthfully, I was just being polite.
3. And who were these other 3 teams, anyway?

Your team was better off with Witten. Dunno why you would pass up on an offer that made your team stronger.

I guess you're just dealing with someone too myopic and pig-headed to see the wisdom of blindly doing what you suggest.

Oh well. At least Witten will go to a team that appreciates him. GL MRT. I hope he kicks ass for you all year.

Apparently, I just failed to realize that your only intention was to selflessly help others, even at the expense of your own team. You are a saint.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're arguing opinions as fact, again. Look, I know you have no idea what self doubt is but what if you're wrong about the fairness of these trades?

The impartial trade scorer scored the trade as a win for JR. No, it's not my opinion that the trade was a win for JR.

What leads you to believe that these were fair trades in the first place?

The fact that the trade scorer said that JR's team would benefit more than mine from the trade.

Further, after no offers were accepted, what makes you think they were fair trades?

Again, because an impartial assessment said they were fair. None of those who received the deals said that they were unfair, only that they didn't have a high opinion of Witten, ie, that they valued him less than most folks.

Also, yes, there is an overarching principle to not carrying players who you won't start and trying to get value but my god, you basically went nuclear and thought "well, if nobody wants him in a trade i deem fair, he's trash". Why wouldn't you think "Maybe the offers I made were kinda dumb and I should try not only other trade partners but maybe different trade partners."

I'm not sure I see the point in trying to deal trade bait when fair offers (to multiple teams), that are in their favor get turned down. It's like offering someone a buck 25 and getting a buck in return. And seeing them turn down the buck.

If people really think that shutting me out is going to net them benefits then they are sadly mistaken.

I admit I don't have anyone who would fit a flex position for you without depriving myself of a flex position, unless you had wanted Welker. Even so, if another player had released Witten what would your opinion of it be? Step outside yourself for a moment.

I'd have asked them to try to make a deal with me first because I would have offered them a better deal. I'd be concerned if people weren't trading with a fellow player that he felt dropping a valuable player was the only deal that he would make. It strikes me that, "hey, whoa, player made decent offers, and nobody seems willing to trade with him - there's an opportunity there that other players are overlooking"

Do you ever question whether or not you're correct in your perception?

I was shocked that none of the offers that I made for Witten weren't taken. I reassessed his value as close to replacement and that I was wrong about his value at TE. One person, sure, but four? Hrm.

I mean, this goes beyond just fantasy football but you seem hell bent on never admitting that you were incorrect in any facet. You might actually have people meet you half way on these things if you restrained your ego. I get that you are a devout catholic but save the infallibility to your god, not yourself.

Uh, the deal with JR was in his favor as assessed by the handy trade generator.

You actually proved me right about Witten, that it was me that was the issue, not the trades or Witten's value. So I feel vindicated by your bid.

[snoopy369]

Witten is a solid TE. He's probably 5th or 6th. Problem is TEs after about 2 are in a big clump, so it's like saying a nickel is worth more than a penny. Sure, but I'm not giving you a dollar for four cents.

And anyone who puts _any_ value in the 'trade scorer' really should consider something other than fantasy football. My kid's got a set of duplos he'd probably be willing to share.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. An offer being reasonable is not an offer accepted.

I was amused you were complaining about how high Witten went in auction after turning him down in a fair deal.

2. Truthfully, I was just being polite.

It was a fair deal. I saw that you had Rudolph who's a ****ty TE and offered you an upgrade in exchange for your flex. Dunno how that's an unfair deal a high end TE with plenty upside for your flex with the same.

3. And who were these other 3 teams, anyway?

MRT's got him now. Shoulda taken the deal I offered you, JR.

[Ben Kenobi]

Witten is a solid TE. He's probably 5th or 6th. Problem is TEs after about 2 are in a big clump, so it's like saying a nickel is worth more than a penny. Sure, but I'm not giving you a dollar for four cents.

You're telling me that a consensus solid TE isn't worth a flex starter?

And anyone who puts _any_ value in the 'trade scorer' really should consider something other than fantasy football. My kid's got a set of duplos he'd probably be willing to share.

Well, ok. Just sayin' wasn't just my opinion that it was a fair trade. It's clear to me that JR values Rudolph a helluva lot more than I do, which explains why he turned it down. Be funny if it bites him in the ass when he plays MRT though!

[MRT144]

Part of it might be the singlemindedness with which you think these trades were fair. I wouldnt use trade scorer as anything but a rough guide. In the end nobody else thought these trades were in their interest marginally, even if we dubiously accept they may have been fair. But that doesn't explain why dropping him is a better use of roster space. I mean, I could go off about how having Brees, Cutler and Rivers likely forced this kind of decision but dude, we can play 2 TEs in this league. Witten as a Flex might better than Steve Smith!

At the very least I would have waited a while before releasing Witten but hey, opinions right?

[Ben Kenobi]

Part of it might be the singlemindedness with which you think these trades were fair.

They were fair. Starting TE for a team with plenty of offensive upside and a proven track record for a flex WR. Sounds fair to me. I wasn't trying to screw JR over, I clicked through all the teams and JR was number one on my '****ty TE alert' so I made him the offer.

I wouldnt use trade scorer as anything but a rough guide. In the end nobody else thought these trades were in their interest marginally, even if we dubiously accept they may have been fair.

They were fair trades. I love how you insist that "It was rejected it must have been unfair". That's no different from asserting that 'Ben made the deal it must be fair'.

But that doesn't explain why dropping him is a better use of roster space.

Are you going to protest it? Nobody contested the drop, and nobody is contesting your bid for him. The vibe I was getting from others is that Witten is a replacement value TE. Those are spectacularly replaceable. So I felt, well, that was a bust of a draft pick if I can't deal him.

I mean, I could go off about how having Brees, Cutler and Rivers likely forced this kind of decision but dude, we can play 2 TEs in this league. Witten as a Flex might better than Steve Smith!

I've ran double TEs it's more trouble than it's worth. 3x WR is a safer bet.

At the very least I would have waited a while before releasing Witten but hey, opinions right?

I did make deals and seeing that nobody really valued Witten I didn't think I could make a deal. So I figured, if nobody's going to deal with me, then I might as well drop him and move on. Why bang your head against a wall?

I'm glad you picked him up though. Vindicates my auction bid and indicates that people were willing to sacrifice the well-being of their teams to maintain an embargo. Sucks to be them.

Good luck MRT, I hope he serves you well.

[MRT144]

I honestly think you have a very warped perception of fair in the abstract so I'm not sorry for doubting whether they are fair or not. These are the checks you cash based on how you act.

Also, it doesn't validate your auction bid, it validates that you are capricious.

[Ben Kenobi]

I honestly think you have a very warped perception of fair

Again, starting TE for a team with upside and a good QB for a flex WR? What about that sounds unfair to you? You say I'm wrong in my perceptions - so explain to me how I'm wrong.

Also, it doesn't validate your auction bid, it validates that you are capricious.

Mhmm, yes, I gage people by their actions not their words. You bid what you were willing to pay for Witten. Now you have him and I hope he does well for you. To me, now I have a better assessment of the true value of Witten.

[-Jrabbit]

I was amused you were complaining about how high Witten went in auction.

I never said anything of the kind; please cite. You're the one who said:

I grabbed him in auction because I felt he was good value for what was being offered. I thought the bids were too low. So I figured I'd use him for trade bait.

Yet you didn't bid on another TE.

MRT's got him now. Shoulda taken the deal I offered you, JR.

If Witten has a typical Witten season, it will hurt you every week he outscores your replacement TE. I will only face him once or twice. Hopefully twice. Besides, MRT already had Jordan Reed.

But that wasn't what I asked. To quote your own favorite argumentative technique:

What's the answer to my question?

3. And who were these other 3 teams, anyway?

Addressing this point...

I'm not sure I see the point in trying to deal trade bait when fair offers (to multiple teams), that are in their favor get turned down.

Both sides need to see value for a trade to be accepted. That a trade wasn't consummated is not IMHO a smart reason to cut a consensus starter. It's a long season, and trade values change. Players get injured, concussed, arrested. Some have breakout seasons. These things can create demand and increase player value.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yet you didn't bid on another TE.

I had 9 autobids at the end of the draft, which I corrected when I got Delanie Walker.

If Witten has a typical Witten season, it will hurt you every week he outscores your replacement TE.

How is it hurting me? I'm happy to see him playing well and vindicating the pick. He only hurts me when I play MRT, and hurts you just the same. You're hurt every week he outperforms your flex.

Both sides need to see value for a trade to be accepted.

Ok, but arguing that the trade was 'unbalanced' or 'unfair' makes no sense to me. You got value, I got value. I don't honestly see the deal as a bad one. I can see if you're high on Rudolph why you'd turn it down. I think Witten was the best player involved. Which is good deal for you down the road. flex WRs are not hard to find.

That a trade wasn't consummated is not IMHO a smart reason to cut a consensus starter.

Given that you weren't willing to trade a starter for a starter, that means he's not a consensus starter.

It's a long season, and trade values change. Players get injured, concussed, arrested. Some have breakout seasons. These things can create demand and increase player value.

I tried to make a deal. Nobody wanted to trade another starter straight up for Witten which makes him not starting caliber.

[MRT144]

Again, starting TE for a team with upside and a good QB for a flex WR? What about that sounds unfair to you? You say I'm wrong in my perceptions - so explain to me how I'm wrong.

I think they're probably less than fair because you're involved in the transaction proposal and because of the bad equity you've accrued over a decade of knowing you.

They're probably not as equitable as you think they are based on no one biting.

But above all else, the conclusion you draw isn't supported - I bid so much for him on waivers because I genuinely believe he will be the only bonafide starter placed on waivers unless you get tired of holding on to a QB you aren't playing. I also spent that much because I didn't know the rules of how the FAAB process worked (See, this is what admitting your error looks like). But knowing that value of Witten does what for you now? Makes you retroactively feel good about the trade offers you made and the bid you placed during the auction? I'd feel bad knowing I gave away a player I didnt have to, that I spent auction money on, because no one was willing to take me up on trade offers. That's the bottom line for me - I wouldn't have used the process and definitely wouldnt have the outcome that you have.

We'll see if this is on the same level of luck/foresight as trading away Eddie Lacy and him getting concussed but I just don't get the thought process on doing it before he's even played a game this year.

[snoopy369]

MRT, just want to make sure you fully understand the FAAB bit: *all* players are placed on waivers *every single week* for the first few days after games. IE, Drew Brees dies in a car accident tomorrow, whomever his backup is goes for $30 FAAB easy.

[MRT144]

I tried to make a deal. Nobody wanted to trade another starter straight up for Witten which makes him not starting caliber.

This is a bad conclusion to reach from the process of soliciting trades and disregards the value you placed on him at auction. You didn't get anything for Witten except unactionable knowledge of his value in FAAB with someone who didn't get how the bid process worked. The ONLY silver lining in this is I have barely any money now to bid on the waiver wire. But given how Jag only bid 24 for a bonafide starter, I can probably spend the rest of mine on another starter if they ever make it to waivers.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think they're probably less than fair because you're involved in the transaction proposal and because of the bad equity you've accrued over a decade of knowing you.

Isn't that what I was saying, it's not the deal, it's me. I have no doubt that had it been another player, JR would have accepted the deal.

I genuinely believe he will be the only bonafide starter

JR's rejection of the trade indicates he didn't think Witten is a starter. An opinion at variance with almost everyone in fantasy. I was shocked by that.

But knowing that value of Witten does what for you now?

It vindicates my opinion of him as a starter. I thought it was curious that people were sending back any trade for Witten that involved a starter. I was like, really? He's a starter. Starter TE for flex is even.

Makes you retroactively feel good about the trade offers you made and the bid you placed during the auction?

Gives me an idea where people's heads actually are. That's the information I really care about. It gets tiresome swimming through the acres of crap people shovel out here.

I'd feel bad knowing I gave away a player I didnt have to, that I spent auction money on, because no one was willing to take me up on trade offers.

Why? I don't feel bad at all. I'm happy he'll be starting for a team that actually wants him.

We'll see if this is on the same level of luck/foresight as trading away Eddie Lacy and him getting concussed but I just don't get the thought process on doing it before he's even played a game this year.

Don't know. I passed him over in IDP. Only bid on him because I thought he was undervalued in Auction. I personally see Witten as a top 3 TE. Surprises me that most don't. Who else is really there?