NHL Playoffs

[Flubber]

Ben

ON Luongo generally, have you not noticed that it is not just Canuck haters that are questioning him? Have you not noticed his extreme inconsistency? (You can cite his numbers in huis good games all you want but when his overall playoff numbers were so very average, that means he was total crap on other occassions)

ben I know you don't listen but there were many respected columnists questioning whetehr Luongo should be starting in game 6 or 7 of the finals. They almost iuniformily agreed that yes he should but the fact that the question is even being asked argues against Luongo as an all time great. An all time great is never, in his prime and uninjured, a question mark as to whether you start in a big game. Never.

Ben find me a Hall of famer who, IN HIS PRIME,

1. got pulled as much as Luongo in a single playoff run and
2. who did not start a game 6 of a playoff series when uninjured


All that said, Luongo did not cost Vancouver the series-- their lack of offense did

[Flubber]

No, it's a trophy that's given to the best goalie in the regular season.

I know that dimwit but Thomas owned him in the regular season and just happpened to match or better his performance in the playoffs while Luongo ended where on sv% in the playoffs-- 6th?? 8th ?? I thought I would stress that-- Thomas this year will have a Vezina and a Conn Smythe -- oh ya and a Stanley Cup

[Asher]

Thomas is one of the Top 1 goalies of all time. Look at how many cups he won in a single year. No other goalie matched him this year.

[Flubber]

So yes, he's got the hardware now. 1 SCF final plus a Jennings, plus multiple Vezina nominations and a hart nomination.

I am sure all the other losing nominees will assert they have the hardware as well---

Oh and the Jennings is a team type award-- its why they switched the vezina-- everyone knew that an ok goalie could win it if playing behind the right team and they wanted the vezina for the actual best goalie

[Ben Kenobi]

ON Luongo generally, have you not noticed that it is not just Canuck haters that are questioning him? Have you not noticed his extreme inconsistency? (You can cite his numbers in huis good games all you want but when his overall playoff numbers were so very average, that means he was total crap on other occassions)

He's a career .919 goalie, and combined reg season and playoffs, there's only one who's better, and that's Hasek. His playoff numbers are by definition, above average. He has a winning record, 5 shutouts, 32 wins. Most goalies don't acheive that in their careers.

I know you don't listen but there were many respected columnists questioning whetehr Luongo should be starting in game 6 or 7 of the finals. They almost iuniformily agreed that yes he should

So who's not listening here? You or me? They came to a conclusion that you disagreed with and with the benefit of hindsight you are second guessing. Anyone can second guess with hindsight.

The fact is this Canuck squad only had 8 goals in 7 games. That, btw, is an all-time NHL record. Ehrhoff, alone was a -13. That means that he allowed more goals when he was on the ice then the entire team scored in the series.

The Canucks had many problems. But Bobby Lou was not the source of them.

As for a HOF, Hasek. Question asked, question answered.

He was 37 when he finally won a cup, and was traded to 4 different teams. If Hasek was so great, why did Buffalo dump his salary?

All that said, Luongo did not cost Vancouver the series-- their lack of offense did

Finally. Sanity prevails.

[Flubber]

Thomas is one of the Top 1 goalies of all time. Look at how many cups he won in a single year. No other goalie matched him this year.

You KILL me LOLOLOLO

[Ben Kenobi]

I know that dimwit but Thomas owned him in the regular season

You said that the Vezina is awarded to the best goalie of the regular season and playoffs. So no, you didn't know this until I corrected you.

No wonder you don't think that Luongo is Vezina worthy because you don't understand the criteria for the award.

Thomas this year will have a Vezina and a Conn Smythe -- oh ya and a Stanley Cup

And Bobby Lou had his most successful season to date with a Jennings.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh and the Jennings is a team type award-- its why they switched the vezina-- everyone knew that an ok goalie could win it if playing behind the right team and they wanted the vezina for the actual best goalie

Which is why netminders like Jim Carey have a Vezina. Fact of the matter is that Luongo has a Vezina-equivalent. In fact you could argue that since the league is now 30 netminders, that Bobby Lou has done far better then most of the Vezina winners by winning the Jennings in a 30 team league.

The Vezina is a subjective award. The Jennings is the objective award. It's like the Art Ross vs the Hart.

I am sure all the other losing nominees will assert they have the hardware as well

How many 300 game winners with a Jennings, 3 Vezina nominations and a hart nomination are not in the HOF?

Sean Burke won't but he was only on two all-star teams.

John Vanbiesbrouck is an interesting comparison. Has a Vezina, but not the Jennings. No Cup, 372 wins.

[Flubber]

.



So who's not listening here? You or me? They came to a conclusion that you disagreed with and with the benefit of hindsight you are second guessing. Anyone can second guess with hindsight.
.

I didn't disagree. I thought Luongo was their guy and based on his play at home you continue to give him a chance . I believed Luongo should start instead of a fairly untested guy. The point was that the question was VERY WIDELY discussed.

As for a HOF, Hasek. Question asked, question answered.

He was 37 when he finally won a cup, and was traded to 4 different teams. If Hasek was so great, why did Buffalo dump his salary?



.

First I said ALL time great not HOF. I thought we were talking about potential for top 5 of all time-- that was your initial assertion and is a far more select grouping which hask would not be part of

Also was Hasek pulled repeatedly in his prime and not started? Which series in what year ? My recollection (probably faulty) is that when he was pulled there were usually injury concerns.

ben

I have never disputed that Luongo has years of some good numbers-- I simply question his consistency when it comes to the big game and this year, despite his excellence in some games, has confirmed me in my views. But I bet if I looked, Luongo has outstanding numbers in the 4 game ones LOL

[Flubber]

You said that the Vezina is awarded to the best goalie of the regular season and playoffs. So no, you didn't know this until I corrected you.

.

Right -- I don't know what I know --I did forget that you are completely pedantic and dishonest -- Have fun

[Flubber]

First I said ALL time great not HOF. I thought we were talking about potential for top 5 of all time-- that was your initial assertion and is a far more select grouping which hask would not be part of

ben and please feel free to take this as evidence that I didn't know his name was HasEk instead of evidence that I make typos when I type

[Ben Kenobi]

I didn't disagree. I thought Luongo was their guy and based on his play at home you continue to give him a chance . I believed Luongo should start instead of a fairly untested guy. The point was that the question was VERY WIDELY discussed.

Same as it was for Hasek and Buffalo. One of the reasons why they dumped his salary.

.
First I said ALL time great not HOF. I thought we were talking about potential for top 5 of all time

Hasek is in that conversation. You don't think Hasek is one of the top 5 all time netminders?

Also was Hasek pulled repeatedly in his prime and not started? Which series in what year ? My recollection (probably faulty) is that when he was pulled there were usually injury concerns.

One of the reasons he was traded from Buffalo, is because he'd never got it done in the Playoffs. Didn't win a cup till he went to Detroit when he was 37.

I have never disputed that Luongo has years of some good numbers-- I simply question his consistency when it comes to the big game and this year, despite his excellence in some games, has confirmed me in my views. But I bet if I looked, Luongo has outstanding numbers in the 4 game ones

He's not an all-time top 10, yet. But, neither was Brodeur at 31, nor was Hasek, and probably not Belfour or Roy.

[Ben Kenobi]

ben and please feel free to take this as evidence that I didn't know his name was HasEk instead of evidence that I make typos when I type

Look, you made a honest mistake. It happens. Calling me names when I point out your honest mistake isn't going to make me charitable.

[-Jrabbit]

So yes, he's got the hardware now. 1 SCF final plus a Jennings, plus multiple Vezina nominations and a hart nomination.

Wait, your argument is that, even though he's never won any of awards mentioned (except the Jennings, which technically, he shares with Schneider), he somehow "has the hardware" to be considered an all-time great now??

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but:
nomination = not winning
(and)
not winning = no hardware.

Oh, and participating in the SCF is not "hardware." Ask any player who's been there and lost. Hossa is quite opinionated on this topic.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wait, your argument is that, even though he's never won any of awards mentioned (except the Jennings, which technically, he shares with Schneider), he somehow "has the hardware" to be considered an all-time great now??

The Jennings counts as hardware, so yes he's got hardware. His HOF case comes from his rate stats (SV PCT), and his career SOs. The rest of it (308 wins, the Jennings, his Hart and 3 Vezina nominations and the SCF run) adds to his overall case.

Think of it as the difference between black ink and gray ink.

Oh, and participating in the SCF is not "hardware." Ask any player who's been there and lost. Hossa is quite opinionated on this topic.

It's something Cujo doesn't have. Not having any significant playoff run was a significant strike against him, and set him on the wrong side. Now he's had a significant run. Is it enough in and of itself? No. But it's a significant boost.