NFL - Are You Ready For Some Football?! - Off Season

[Imran Siddiqui]

yeah but do you see much fan support for Vincent Jackson? I really haven't seen it. Compare his situation with Josh Cribbs in the summer. Commentators and analysts left and right said the Browns should pay Cribbs and he had a lot of fan support in his case.

Just saying in general. The NFL is notorious for being absolutely horrible to its players (don't even get me started on how they treat their retirees)

[Al B. Sure!]

Ochocinco? He's a prime *****. An idiot. Owens finally found someone more stupid than himself. You're probably correct.

In all fairness, neither Ochocinco nor Owens have ever done anything illegal, criminal, immoral, or socially controversial. By all accounts, they are upstanding citizens despite their antics. Let's make sure we distinguish them from the Roethlisbergers and Travis Henrys of the world.

[Jaguar]

The Vincent Jackson/Brandon Marshall debate is an interesting one, but everyone has missed the biggest difference between them: number of attempts.

Marshall has been thrown at 155 times, 181 times, and 170 times over the past three years. That's twice as many targets as some #1s get.

Jackson: 109, 100, 81. Those are pretty low numbers for a #1 receiver. Reason for that is a guy named Antonio Gates, who is the true #1 option in San Diego. Jackson has done much more with much fewer targets, although obviously in a context of a much better offense. However, those past two years are amazing in terms of efficiency.

I think Jackson was more talented than Marshall, but his general demeanor and lack of commitment to the game suggest to me that he doesn't have much of a future.

[SlowwHand]

Back to the Cowboys , so far, Miles Austin has maintained an ideal attitude. I hope it continues. I think Dez Bryant's addition is going to bust things loose pretty soon.
It needs to happen soon. Like against Houston this week. If they go 0-3, that's real hard to overcome. Dallas doesn't even accept good effort. The city wants it all, every year. They had/have high expectations for this year. We could see riots.

[Al B. Sure!]

The Vincent Jackson/Brandon Marshall debate is an interesting one, but everyone has missed the biggest difference between them: number of attempts.

Marshall has been thrown at 155 times, 181 times, and 170 times over the past three years. That's twice as many targets as some #1s get.

Jackson: 109, 100, 81. Those are pretty low numbers for a #1 receiver. Reason for that is a guy named Antonio Gates, who is the true #1 option in San Diego. Jackson has done much more with much fewer targets, although obviously in a context of a much better offense. However, those past two years are amazing in terms of efficiency.

I think Jackson was more talented than Marshall, but his general demeanor and lack of commitment to the game suggest to me that he doesn't have much of a future.

No, Jaguar... if you were a defense playing against the Chargers, who were you worried about? Gates and Tomlinson. I am sure if you watch the games, Vincent Jackson was always facing one-on-one coverage and the safety is watching Gates or the backfield more often that Jackson's side. One-on-one coverage and limited safety help is a recipe for big gains for Jackson. Hell, give any receiver one-on-one coverage and no safety help over the top and a QB like Rivers throwing to them and they can run post routes all day for big gains.

Compare to Marshall who constantly faced double coverage.

What happened on the rare times when Vincent Jackson actually faced double coverage? Last year's game vs. the Eagles:

The Eagles used double-coverage on Vincent Jackson throughout his one-catch performance Sunday. "They were very careful, and were not going to let us get the ball upfield to Vincent, and they doubled him most of the game," said coach Norv Turner.

1 catch for 10 yards on one of the few games where he faced double coverage.

You can't just go look at his yards per reception and his catch rate and claim he's so good and efficient. How are defenses reacting to him? Marshall always faced double coverage; Vincent Jackson rarely did and when he did, he was shut down. It's obvious who's the better receiver.

[Donegeal]

why? Why?? WHY??? Why do you DO this sort of thing, Al? Page after page of first Kold v Vick and now V-Jax v Marshall? And this debate is with Ben? I'd rather talk about Dallas with Sloww.

[ColdWizard]

Just saying in general. The NFL is notorious for being absolutely horrible to its players (don't even get me started on how they treat their retirees)

I used to be of the opinion that players should play out their contracts. Now I support them in getting what they can while they can because later they won't get it.

Back to the Cowboys , so far, Miles Austin has maintained an ideal attitude. I hope it continues. I think Dez Bryant's addition is going to bust things loose pretty soon.
It needs to happen soon. Like against Houston this week. If they go 0-3, that's real hard to overcome. Dallas doesn't even accept good effort. The city wants it all, every year. They had/have high expectations for this year. We could see riots.

Clearly they should run Barber more. That will open up the passing game more for Bryant and Austin.

But overcoming 0-3 shouldn't be an impossible task in the East this year.

[snoopy369]

I generally think that NFL players need to get paid on much more incentive-based contracts. The next CBA ought to have guaranteed contracts, with high incentive clauses, so the players get paid but the owners aren't on the hook for injuries. Or else just have automatic insurance on all contracts (and then make them guaranteed for both injury and performance). Unfortunately, neither one of those is appealing to either players OR owners, so it's highly unlikely to happen.

[-Jrabbit]

I think the only major change will be a rookie salary cap, but maybe even that is just wishful thinking. Frankly, I haven't been paying much attention to the CBA negotiations yet, as it's still in the early stages of posturing.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I generally think that NFL players need to get paid on much more incentive-based contracts. The next CBA ought to have guaranteed contracts, with high incentive clauses, so the players get paid but the owners aren't on the hook for injuries. Or else just have automatic insurance on all contracts (and then make them guaranteed for both injury and performance). Unfortunately, neither one of those is appealing to either players OR owners, so it's highly unlikely to happen.

Indeed. As much as baseball's salary structure is screwed up, they do know that the team will have to honor their contracts. Which is also why there are far less holdouts in baseball. When you are in a league where the team doesn't have to honor their contract, especially when they are sending you out there to be physically beaten, your loyalty to playing out your contract is far lessened.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you even a Chargers fan?

Sure was.

Who was the starting receiver for the Chargers in 2007? I'll give you a clue... he was the Chargers leading Wide Receiver in receptions and yardage and his initials are V and J.

VJ was a relative unknown up until that year. Chambers, the number one WR got traded and then he started getting more playing time. Chambers had 550 yards on 7 starts.

At least his 41 catches and 623 yards led his position on the team so there's no question that he was not only THE starter but THE team's #1 WR, even though he sucked.

Except that Chambers was considered to be the number 1, and that spot opened up when he got dealt to Miami.

And somehow, he's better than Marshall who had 104 catches and 1200+ yards in HIS 3rd year.

Sure is. He's been far more productive the last two years.

Let's not forget that Vincent Jackson is OLDER than Marshall. Jackson has done less in more time than Marshall

That doesn't change the fact that Marshall isn't outproducing him.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, Jaguar... if you were a defense playing against the Chargers, who were you worried about? Gates and Tomlinson. I am sure if you watch the games, Vincent Jackson was always facing one-on-one coverage and the safety is watching Gates or the backfield more often that Jackson's side. One-on-one coverage and limited safety help is a recipe for big gains for Jackson. Hell, give any receiver one-on-one coverage and no safety help over the top and a QB like Rivers throwing to them and they can run post routes all day for big gains.

Well sure. Look at the targets. Anyone can produce if they get 200 targets a year.

Compare to Marshall who constantly faced double coverage.

Which is one of the reasons the Broncos were a terrible team.

What happened on the rare times when Vincent Jackson actually faced double coverage?

It's a bad idea, because the Chargers wouldn't throw into double coverage on Jackson. They were perfectly happy to destroy you with Gates, or Tomlinson.

1 catch for 10 yards on one of the few games where he faced double coverage.

On one target? Meanwhile Gates in that game: 7-78. Tomlinson? 24-90 and 2 TDs. Tolbert had a TD. Even Legs, was 3-42 and a TD. Floyd was 3-45.

Rivers was 20-25 for 231 and 2 TDs.

It's obvious who's the better receiver.

Obviously Vincent Jackson because he does more with less. That Denver's offense was one-dimensional in the passing game hurt them, and is one of the reasons why they will be better without Marshall than with him. Royal is the better WR.

[Ben Kenobi]

Reason for that is a guy named Antonio Gates, who is the true #1 option in San Diego.

I'm 2-0 because of him. He's just that awesome.

Brandon Marshall isn't even performing as a WR1 2 games into the season. I almost have 4 WRs that have performed better than him. Collie, Driver, Floyd and Colston who is 2.5 points under. In PPR, Marshall is the 35th best WR. In a 12 team league, you'd have him as a WR3/4, and draft him in the 9th round.

[Al B. Sure!]

The facts are that Jackson rarely would face double coverage and when he did, he was always shut down. Meanwhile, Marshall has faced double coverage virtually his entire career. Jackson has a better QB throwing to him than Marshall did. You agree to all of that yet somehow Marshall's superior stats don't equate to Marshall being better?

Am I missing something?

If one player is putting up better stats on a worse offense with a worse QB throwing to him AND he is constantly facing double coverage then that player is better than another player with less impressive stats on a better offense with a better QB rarely facing double coverage (and when he does, he gets shut down)...

Can someone not from the Beniverse tell me if I've lost my mind?

[flash9286]

I generally think that NFL players need to get paid on much more incentive-based contracts. The next CBA ought to have guaranteed contracts, with high incentive clauses, so the players get paid but the owners aren't on the hook for injuries. Or else just have automatic insurance on all contracts (and then make them guaranteed for both injury and performance). Unfortunately, neither one of those is appealing to either players OR owners, so it's highly unlikely to happen.

Isn't the first option basically what the NFL has now. I look at it like this, the signing bonus is a guaranteed contract and rest of the contract is basically an option that the team will pick up if the player performs and doesn't get hurt.

Can someone not from the Beniverse tell me if I've lost my mind?

You haven't, Marshall is a better receiver than Jackson.