MLB - 2007 Season

[Imran Siddiqui]

But nothing like MFY fans, 'cuz we don't have that sense of entitlement or swoon like little girls every time Steiny gets out his checkbook.

The sense of entitlement is there now that you've won, what 1 WS in the last 80+ years. And instead you swoon whenever Henry gets out his checkbook (*cough* Matsuzaka).

Face it, you are Yankees Lite right now.

Where's Clemens, his paycheck and his ego going to fit in that? We don't have holes in our pitching staff and aren't looking at our standings vis-a-vis the Orioles and the Devil Rays.

We'll revist once Beckett gets his annual major injury.

[Arrian]

There isn't room for the egos of Clemens and Shilling on one team.

From the perspective of the Red Sox front office, I can understand why they bid $18 (pro-rated), a figure almost guaranteed to not reel in Roger. Right now their rotation is looking pretty solid. Why break the bank to get Roger, when you know full well that the Yankees are going to go nuts to get him?

I think Boston's pitching is going to regress a bit. For one thing, I think Wakefield in particular is due to give up some runs (he's good, sure, but he's not THIS good). Beckett, while a better bet to continue to be great, is also probably due for at least a small regression. Those two could be partially balanced out by Dice-K getting his ERA under 5... if he can. That's unclear to me at this point. The bullpen has been so good there really isn't anywhere to go but down (I'm not saying it'll implode, mind you).

And all that is w/o any injuries. So far, Boston's pitching injuries have been minor: Timlin and, if a guy who hasn't thrown a pitch this year for the big club counts, Lester*.

I wish injury on no one. But I have to think that they will suffer some injuries. I'm hoping, obviously, that the Yankees have gotten their injuries out of the way.

-Arrian

* - to be clear, I'm not talking about the cancer, but the forearm discomfort that he reported last week...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The sense of entitlement is there now that you've won, what 1 WS in the last 80+ years. And instead you swoon whenever Henry gets out his checkbook (*cough* Matsuzaka).

Naaah - the sense of "entitlement" is that, unlike a lot of other teams, like maybe 28 of 'em, we expect our ownership and management to try to field a playoff and series competitive team. Nothing like the MFY "we deserve to win the series every year" mentality.

Given the pitchers available, and the holes in the pitching staff, Matsuzaka was a market-competitive risk. I think it was a lot to pay for a pitcher unproven in the majors, but given his age, physical conditioning and other indicators, it's not near as crazy as a lot of these short term deals for old-timers. It is a six-year deal, so unless he's a bust or gets seriously injured, the Sox contracted for a top of the rotation pitcher for his prime pitching years. Not too many of those opportunities around, regardless of cost.

Face it, you are Yankees Lite right now.

Ah, the sweet smell of jealousy from a fan of the other team in NY.

Where's Clemens, his paycheck and his ego going to fit in that? We don't have holes in our pitching staff and aren't looking at our standings vis-a-vis the Orioles and the Devil Rays.

We'll revist once Beckett gets his annual major injury.

6-0 and going strong. He had more innings pitched last year than any time in his career, and is in better shape than any time in his career. Besides, if he does go down, we already have six starters, once Lester is back up.

[Arrian]

Naaah - the sense of "entitlement" is that, unlike a lot of other teams, like maybe 28 of 'em, we expect our ownership and management to try to field a playoff and series competitive team. Nothing like the MFY "we deserve to win the series every year" mentality.

Of course, if one asked a Yankee fan about the "sense of entitlement" of Yankees fans, the Yankee fan would respond with just such a statement: "We expect our team to try to win."

Given the pitchers available, and the holes in the pitching staff, Matsuzaka was a market-competitive risk. I think it was a lot to pay for a pitcher unproven in the majors, but given his age, physical conditioning and other indicators, it's not near as crazy as a lot of these short term deals for old-timers.

I see you've rationalized the Matsuzaka deal. Actually, a short-term deal for an "old timer" is a lot LESS risky than a 6-year deal. Now if you ignore the posting fee (dunno why one would, but many do), the contract itself is reasonable.

As for "top of the rotation starter" ... are you sure that's the case? Based on the admittedly small sample so far, I don't see a top of the rotation starter. I see a guy who's a whole lot better than Kei Igawa, but top of the rotation starters don't have ERAs over 5, dude.

-Arrian

[Tuberski]

Clemens is 45 years old, when it leaves him it's gonna leave all at once, I'm hoping it's this year.

We really need a salary cap in baseball, I'm sick of hearing about the MFY and MFBoSX.

Who cares about second place teams that load up on talent and fail to deliver?

Since the last Yankees win, the WS has been won every year by "heart" teams, including the Red Sox.

Talent helps win but, both of these teams are heartless.

ACK!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Arrian


Of course, if one asked a Yankee fan about the "sense of entitlement" of Yankees fans, the Yankee fan would respond with just such a statement: "We expect our team to try to win the world series every year."

Fixed.

I see you've rationalized the Matsuzaka deal. Actually, a short-term deal for an "old timer" is a lot LESS risky than a 6-year deal. Now if you ignore the posting fee (dunno why one would, but many do), the contract itself is reasonable.

Water over the dam, as far as the deal goes. Even if you factor in the posting fee, it's not terribly insane compared to deals like Gil Meche, Igawa, etc. Not as risky? How many old guys do you think the Boss can scrape up for one year deals over the next six?

As for "top of the rotation starter" ... are you sure that's the case? Based on the admittedly small sample so far, I don't see a top of the rotation starter. I see a guy who's a whole lot better than Kei Igawa, but top of the rotation starters don't have ERAs over 5, dude.

-Arrian

Top of the rotation starter is what everyone was looking for when they posted for Matsuzaka. Transition to the majors isn't usually that smooth, and Matsuzaka's sample so far shows he's in control most innings, and melts down spectacularly about one inning a game. That's more a sign of a mechanics problem than a guy who doesn't have it. There's still about 5.8 and change years to go, so we'll see.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Nothing like the MFY "we deserve to win the series every year" mentality.

You keep telling yourself that . As Arrian points out, the "entitlement" that BoSox fans show is eerily similar to the one that Yanks fans show.

Ah, the sweet smell of jealousy from a fan of the other team in NY.

Jealousy? If you hadn't noticed, the "other team" in NY is doing quite well so far this season, especially considering that the 4 and 5 batters haven't even started hitting yet.

It's just away from the glare of the NY-BOS circus, one can see it a bit more objectively. I promise you that most fans outside that rivalry see both teams as basically one and the same (with the Yanks a slight bit worse).

Given the pitchers available, and the holes in the pitching staff, Matsuzaka was a market-competitive risk. I think it was a lot to pay for a pitcher unproven in the majors, but given his age, physical conditioning and other indicators, it's not near as crazy as a lot of these short term deals for old-timers. It is a six-year deal, so unless he's a bust or gets seriously injured, the Sox contracted for a top of the rotation pitcher for his prime pitching years. Not too many of those opportunities around, regardless of cost.

"Top of the rotation" has yet to be seen. You've paid $100mil for a guy who has an ERA+ of 80. That's 20% WORSE than the average pitcher. He's not even pitching as well as Carl Pavano was this season (though he is beating Mussina).

Could he improve? Yes. Of course. But right now he's overpaid.

6-0 and going strong. He had more innings pitched last year than any time in his career, and is in better shape than any time in his career.

Beckett actually did squeeze over the 200 IP mark last year for the first time of his career. But is it a fluke? We'll have to see... but he's going to spend some time on the DL, that's probably a granted.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Fixed.

You don't expect your team to try to win the world series every year?

Bull****.

it's not terribly insane compared to deals like Gil Meche, Igawa, etc.

Igawa was bad, no doubt. It was a panic move by the Yanks. BUT, Meche is looking like a genius move so far. He's 3-1 (out of a team that has a total of 10 wins) with a 2.23 ERA with 35 Ks and 10 BBs, and is posting an ERA+ of 204 (he's 104% better than the average pitcher), making him 3rd in the league in that catagory (behind Haren and Wakefield). Well worth the money.

[Arrian]

Igawa looks pretty bad now, definitely. And unlike Dice-K, not only is he bad, he's EXCRUCIATING to watch. Dice-K has given up runs, but he works fast and, aside from his bizzaro innings where he can't buy a strike, attacks the strike zone.

Meche is pitching well now, but I'm not at all convinced. I still think that sooner rather than later he'll go back to being Gil Meche, mediocre pitcher. It's a tad early to be judging a 5-year contract (same applies to Matsuzaka, obviously).

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Of course, if one asked a Yankee fan about the "sense of entitlement" of Yankees fans, the Yankee fan would respond with just such a statement: "We expect our team to try to win the world series every year."

Fixed.

Um, yeah. Try to win the world series. That's what trying to win means. The Red Sox are trying to win the world series too, and you love it.

I'm not sure what distinction you think there is here.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

One would hope all teams try to win.

[Arrian]

Indeed. Most do, I think, but obviously there is variance in just how much a team is willing to gamble with its payroll (and of course having revenues like the Yanks, Mets, Sox, etc. is really helpful in that regard).

Some years, though, it really looks like a couple of teams just aren't trying.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yep, as a Mets fan, I'd sincerely hope that Minaya is trying to win a World Series every year.

[Guynemer]

Yankees-Red Sox ***** waving:

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
["Top of the rotation" has yet to be seen. You've paid $100mil for a guy who has an ERA+ of 80. That's 20% WORSE than the average pitcher. He's not even pitching as well as Carl Pavano was this season (though he is beating Mussina).

The guy has eight years in the Japan leagues, and a few weeks in the majors. I'm not interested in his stats in the beginning of the second week of May.

The deal on Matsuzaka was that everyone who posted, was evaluating him as a top of the rotation starter based on what he's done so far. Did anyone who knows squat about baseball expect a smooth, insta-fit transition from the Japan league to the AL? Matsuzaka may not make it, but based on what was known and reasonably expected at the time the deal was negotiated, it wasn't a huge risk.

If you think there's anyone who makes their living in professional baseball scouting, coaching or management who thinks Matsuzaka's "20 percent worse than the average pitcher" at this point, I've got a swamp to sell you.

6-0 and going strong. He had more innings pitched last year than any time in his career, and is in better shape than any time in his career.

Beckett actually did squeeze over the 200 IP mark last year for the first time of his career. But is it a fluke? We'll have to see... but he's going to spend some time on the DL, that's probably a granted.

Most likely, yeah, but Beckett's in better shape by far than he has been, and he's got a lot of people looking after him.