MLB - 2007 Season

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Besides, I'm a Mets fan . The Yankees and Red Sox interest me because it is the most storied rivalry in all of baseball. Yes, yes, you have Dodgers & Giants, Cardinals & Cubs, etc, but nothing compares to the Yanks and BoSox.

Speaking of our little brothers from Queens, hey, that Glavine guy can still pitch a little, eh?

-Arrian

[MichaeltheGreat]

Maybe Steiny's got another 20 mil stashed in the mattress?

Pretty amazing that all three of the top pitchers of the Braves' glory years are all still around, each 40 plus years old, 827 career wins between them and counting.

Old guys.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's called "performance enhancing drugs"

[MichaeltheGreat]

Naah, it's called having more brains than balls. Something Josh Beckett's learned at a young age.

[Arrian]

I highly doubt it in the case of Maddux and Glavine, but it's possible.

After all, pitchers keep getting nailed. Usually fringy middle-relief types, but still.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Arrian
I highly doubt it in the case of Maddux and Glavine, but it's possible.

After all, pitchers keep getting nailed. Usually fringy middle-relief types, but still.

-Arrian

On the other hand, if batters in the late 30s who keep hitting get suspicious looks from the public at large, why shouldn't pitchers?

After all, a good deal of PEDs out there are used to reduce fatigue.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


On the other hand, if batters in the late 30s who keep hitting get suspicious looks from the public at large, why shouldn't pitchers?

After all, a good deal of PEDs out there are used to reduce fatigue.

Longevity with pitchers probably has little to do with fatigue, in the sense that PED's could reduce fatigue.

IMO it's more to do with the orthopedic integrity of the joints and connective tissue, and the pitcher's continuing ability to have a range of pitches, velocities and control to be effective - all of which impose different kinds and intensities of strain on the body. Some guys are lucky, some are built to take the strain their pitching style imposes (probably Ryan), some can't take the strain (Koufax), and some are effective throwing garbage (Maddux, knuckleballers, etc.) and put less strain on their bodies getting through a game.

Look at the Niekro brothers for an example before the whole performance/cheating issue. Guys like Ryan are a different category - he's just an animal, but there are a lot more Fydrich's in the game than there are Ryan's.

With hitters, hitting for average isn't a big deal, but when a guy all of a sudden starts hitting homers over 450 feet when he never did it over several years in the majors, then it's pretty obvious.

Then again, look at Boozer Wells. Not much question that everything he's put in his system would not fall into the PED category, but he's still going.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You mean like Roger Maris in 1961 and Joe Torre in 1966... oh, wait .

It is telling that more pitchers have been caught taking steroids than hitters since the MLB's testing policy came into effect, but better technology in medicine has helped both pitchers and hitters... not saying they are taking PEDs, but it does seem to me that we do have more pitchers being effective even into their 40s, while throwing at pretty decent velocities... but we don't ever seem to talk to about that... wonder why .

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You mean like Roger Maris in 1961 and Joe Torre in 1966... oh, wait .

Yeah, Sosa, Bonds, Mac and Canseco were all comparable to Maris and Torre. Especially with Torre's whopping increase of nine homers over the prior year, with a drop in RBI and increase in average, and Maris' one year fluke.

It is telling that more pitchers have been caught taking steroids than hitters since the MLB's testing policy came into effect, but better technology in medicine has helped both pitchers and hitters... not saying they are taking PEDs, but it does seem to me that we do have more pitchers being effective even into their 40s, while throwing at pretty decent velocities... but we don't ever seem to talk to about that... wonder why .

What proportion of those pitchers caught have been either young (minor leaguer) types probably trying to beef up in strength to transition to longer seasons at the major league level, or marginal pitchers trying to get minimally effective, vs those that are established, successful pitchers at the major league level?

Personally, I'd think steroids would be more career-shortening for a pitcher (though this wouldn't be a concern if you didn't yet have a career) rather than enhancing, due to wear on connective tissue and damage to cartilage and joint caps.

[snoopy369]

Steroids perhaps, but other PED are more related to decreasing recovery time, which is much more of an issue for pitchers than hitters.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Yeah, Sosa, Bonds, Mac and Canseco were all comparable to Maris and Torre. Especially with Torre's whopping increase of nine homers over the prior year, with a drop in RBI and increase in average, and Maris' one year fluke.

How exactly do McGwire and Canseco work? It isn't like Canseco wasn't hitting HRs as soon as he came up (33 in his rookie year) or McGwire with 49 his first season up. One of the big reasons for McGwire's resurgence was the fact he was walking more, hitting the ball for average as well as power, and he wasn't injured as much.

As for Torre, that career year was about 20 HRs higher than his career HR/Game would have indicated he should have hit.

What proportion of those pitchers caught have been either young (minor leaguer) types probably trying to beef up in strength to transition to longer seasons at the major league level, or marginal pitchers trying to get minimally effective, vs those that are established, successful pitchers at the major league level?

You do realize you can ask the same question for the hitter that have been caught? Most of those are young, minor league types vs. established successful starters. The only exception has been Palmeiro.

Personally, I'd think steroids would be more career-shortening for a pitcher (though this wouldn't be a concern if you didn't yet have a career) rather than enhancing, due to wear on connective tissue and damage to cartilage and joint caps.

It does interest me that you seem to have a lot of relievers who have one or two amazing year and then have major arm trouble requiring surgery and the pitchers are never the same again. Then again, plenty of starters seem to suffer more arm injuries than they seem to have in the past.

And as pointed out, steroids aren't the only PEDs out there.

[SlowwHand]

Maris didn't take steroids. Debate all you guys want on the rest.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Hey Tex - are the rockin', sockin' Texas Poodles actually going to show off another trick besides rolling over and playing dead the next couple of days?

That was sad last night. Don't disappoint me, they're my second favorite team tonight and tomorrow.

[Fistandantilus]

You're just mad because the Rangers are 2-1 against Boston and 0-4 against the Yankees.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Water over the dam. I just want them to do their job the next two games, that's all.