liberal hypocrisies

[BeBMan]

Merkel and others have admitted the Minsk Accord was designed to give the west time to build the Ukrainian military for this war.

"The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time. They used that time to get stronger, which you can see today. Ukraine of 2014/15 is not Ukraine of today." - Angela Merkel

Where does it say "Minsk Accord was designed to give the west time to build the Ukrainian military for this war." like you claimed above, and which I replied to? Where did Merkel indicate at any time during the negotiations for Minsk I or II that she had prescient knowledge Putin would invade Ukraine Feb 22, so years before he actually did invade (="this war") ? Did Merkel and Putin conspire to attack Ukraine in Feb 22 or was she reading Vlad's mind?!?

We are helping Ukraine "so that we can fight Russia over there, and we dont have to fight Russia over here" - Adam Schiff 2020

Wow, you really got him there. He's not keen on fighting Russia in the US, big reveal.

[Berzerker]

"was an attempt to give Ukraine time"

as for Adam Schiff, we were fighting Russia over there and Ukrainians were our foot soldiers

[BeBMan]

Oh, so she didn't say what you claimed first she said. Rather what you claim now. I didn't check the original German quote, because I'm a lazy Kraut. That also gives people space in case they still want to present her words in ummm another way.

[Dauphin]

Merkel is German, so even a warm greeting sounds like she is saying 'achtung' or 'Für das vaterland'

[BeBMan]

Which is probably what she really meant

[Berzerker]

Oh, so she didn't say what you claimed first she said. Rather what you claim now. I didn't check the original German quote, because I'm a lazy Kraut. That also gives people space in case they still want to present her words in ummm another way.

"The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time. They used that time to get stronger, which you can see today. Ukraine of 2014/15 is not Ukraine of today." - Angela Merkel

Time for what? War... not peace.

[Geronimo]

"The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time. They used that time to get stronger, which you can see today. Ukraine of 2014/15 is not Ukraine of today." - Angela Merkel

Time for what? War... not peace.

You mean attacking the Donetsk separatist republic armed forces? Given there was plenty of evidence that they answered to Moscow, they were invaders that had to be expelled. You fault them for not pursuing "peace"? What did they get for pursuing "peace" in 2014? Did the armed formations that reported to Moscow leave Ukraine?

[Berzerker]

Minsk was the peace deal that kept the Donbas in Ukraine with greater autonomy, ie, Azov wouldn't get to culturally cleanse the ethnic Russians living there like they were doing to other regions. The Donetsk would have been a safe haven for Ukrainians persecuted by the right wing. Merkel admitted Minsk wasn't about peace, it gave Ukraine time to take it back by force to bleed Russia. Millions of innocent people lived there when the man they elected was overthrown by the western coup. They didn't like that and they knew damn well who was coming for them. The people there overwhelmingly supported independence, ~90% voted for it decades before. That didn't change in 2014 because of little green men.

Yes they asked Russia for help, so what? Nazis were killing ethnic Russians and undesirables and Azov was heading east for them. Were they supposed to ask Obama for help? He was the bastard who toppled their elected leader and sicked Nazis on them. Accusing the victims of answering to Moscow to justify attacking them ignores the reality faced by Ukrainians when the CIA and right wing took over and started killing people. Obama was arming ISIS at the same time to destroy Syria, our mercenaries are fanatics and terrorists. Oh listen, I can hear another Joe Biden speech condemning white supremacy.

[BeBMan]

"The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time. They used that time to get stronger, which you can see today. Ukraine of 2014/15 is not Ukraine of today." - Angela Merkel

Just so we can be sure this is actually her quote and not just what you made up --- source???

I mean, earlier you said it

was designed to give the west time to build the Ukrainian military for this war.

(Bolding by me!)

Now suddenly there's no mention of the west or any design or any particular war.

Design would indicate intention, feel free to back this up.

"This war" would mean they knew when they negotiated Minsk II in 2015 we'd have a war in 2022.

Time for what? War... not peace.

Aside from the little fact that this is not what she said, but what you inject as intention:

If Minsk was to "give Ukraine time" for whatever --- between Minsk II (2015) and now, compared to Ukraine did Russia had less time as an result of Minsk???

[Geronimo]

Minsk was the peace deal that kept the Donbas in Ukraine with greater autonomy, ie, Azov wouldn't get to culturally cleanse the ethnic Russians living there like they were doing to other regions. The Donetsk would have been a safe haven for Ukrainians persecuted by the right wing. Merkel admitted Minsk wasn't about peace, it gave Ukraine time to take it back by force to bleed Russia. Millions of innocent people lived there when the man they elected was overthrown by the western coup. They didn't like that and they knew damn well who was coming for them. The people there overwhelmingly supported independence, ~90% voted for it decades before. That didn't change in 2014 because of little green men.

Yes they asked Russia for help, so what? Nazis were killing ethnic Russians and undesirables and Azov was heading east for them. Were they supposed to ask Obama for help? He was the bastard who toppled their elected leader and sicked Nazis on them. Accusing the victims of answering to Moscow to justify attacking them ignores the reality faced by Ukrainians when the CIA and right wing took over and started killing people. Obama was arming ISIS at the same time to destroy Syria, our mercenaries are fanatics and terrorists. Oh listen, I can hear another Joe Biden speech condemning white supremacy.

I know why Serb believes all of this BS. Why do you? I'd love to hear what convinces you of the facts. It's a given that the signal to BS ratio from *all* news and historical sources is appalling so I strongly believe it pays off in new insights and 180s to hear where the other side is coming from.

Part of me thinks that in the case of narrative you offer in Ukraine it comes from a small group of fringe "independent" journalists and commentators spinning a narrative in return for direct financial compensation from Moscow agents and spun as well by others jumping on that bandwagon for a new angle to grind their axes. That said, I don't dismiss entirely the possibility that some underappreciated truth(s) may underpin some or all of the important details. Let's get it out and compare sources for major conflicting points.

For starters I'll volunteer that my one of my biggest problems with the claims of large scale ethnic cleansing and genocide by Azov or any other official or semi-official, state or state backed Ukrainian group is the total lack of specifics. Where is the equivalent in the Donbass to Bucha, let alone the equivalents to Inn Din, Srebrenica or far too many to list villages in Rwanda?

How has "persecution" of Russian speakers been any worse than "persecution" of, say, English speakers in Quebec? Without this piece it's almost irrelevant whether Washington somehow established a puppet regime of 40 million people using a few agents with promises of money.

[Berzerker]

Just so we can be sure this is actually her quote and not just what you made up --- source???

I mean, earlier you said it


(Bolding by me!)

Now suddenly there's no mention of the west or any design or any particular war.

Design would indicate intention, feel free to back this up.

"This war" would mean they knew when they negotiated Minsk II in 2015 we'd have a war in 2022.



Aside from the little fact that this is not what she said, but what you inject as intention:

If Minsk was to "give Ukraine time" for whatever --- between Minsk II (2015) and now, compared to Ukraine did Russia had less time as an result of Minsk???

I did back it up, I quoted her stated intent for Minsk - to give Ukraine time to build its military for war which she pointed to as evidence of their successful design. They knew the war wouldn't happen with Trump so a neocon would have to replace him first. I didn't say she predicted this war in 2022. I dont know what preparations Russia made following Minsk, they continued supporting the people there being attacked by Azov.

[BeBMan]

I did back it up, I quoted her stated intent for Minsk - to give Ukraine time to build its military for war which she pointed to as evidence of their successful design.

Except that her quote does not contain "design" or "war". Spin is not fact.

And btw you still did not bother to provide a source. Shockingly I found out meanwhile this appeared in western media first, namely in an interview with German mag "Die Zeit". So we better check this in detail to be sure

[Geronimo]

I did back it up, I quoted her stated intent for Minsk - to give Ukraine time to build its military for war which she pointed to as evidence of their successful design. They knew the war wouldn't happen with Trump so a neocon would have to replace him first. I didn't say she predicted this war in 2022. I don't know what preparations Russia made following Minsk, they continued supporting the people there being attacked by Azov.

You think some quote mining is adequate to demonstrate claims this big? You're claiming that the West created Euromaidan to start a war in the Donbass through creation and control of Azov to make a lot of money by donating weapons to Ukraine? You think that the fact that Merkel thought the Minsk agreement was actually not a worthwhile agreement and would support it only to buy time for Ukraine constitutes evidence of your whacky narrative? A treaty in which Ukraine is forced by Russia surrender the Donbass to Russia's armed forces the way Russia forced Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and other frozen conflict areas have been surrendered? Surrendered and filled with people Russia provides with Russian passports and in each case led to Russian "peacekeepers" permanently stationed in the surrendered territory to the exclusion of any other sovereign armed forces?

[Berzerker]

I know why Serb believes all of this BS. Why do you? I'd love to hear what convinces you of the facts. It's a given that the signal to BS ratio from *all* news and historical sources is appalling so I strongly believe it pays off in new insights and 180s to hear where the other side is coming from.

Part of me thinks that in the case of narrative you offer in Ukraine it comes from a small group of fringe "independent" journalists and commentators spinning a narrative in return for direct financial compensation from Moscow agents and spun as well by others jumping on that bandwagon for a new angle to grind their axes. That said, I don't dismiss entirely the possibility that some underappreciated truth(s) may underpin some or all of the important details. Let's get it out and compare sources for major conflicting points.

For starters I'll volunteer that my one of my biggest problems with the claims of large scale ethnic cleansing and genocide by Azov or any other official or semi-official, state or state backed Ukrainian group is the total lack of specifics. Where is the equivalent in the Donbass to Bucha, let alone the equivalents to Inn Din, Srebrenica or far too many to list villages in Rwanda?

How has "persecution" of Russian speakers been any worse than "persecution" of, say, English speakers in Quebec? Without this piece it's almost irrelevant whether Washington somehow established a puppet regime of 40 million people using a few agents with promises of money.

I didn't mention ethnic cleansing and genocide and the media was less muted about the Nazis following the coup. Most of the people killed in the Donbas died in 2014-15 driving millions to flee Azov's attacks. Many articles addressed Ukraine's Nazi problem, Google and look for articles before 2022. Even the rabid neocon warmongers at the Atlantic Council admitted it.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...this-headline/

That was from 2018... Notice the change in tone in 2022?

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...-imperial-war/

We were arming Azov and ISIS in 2014

[BeBMan]

But carefull with all this western media