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**Berzerker** · June 12, 2023, 20:43

Originally posted by Geronimo View Post

The problem with justifying the secession of the Donbas as appropriate because Ukraine was "Nazi" is that right from the very start the Separatists and their Russian backers were filled with fascists. It's perfectly reasonable to support the likes of Azov vs an expansionist Russian state, Especially if Azov is seen over and over moving against armed fascist led organizations and not acting against civillians. Nazi is as Nazi does Berz.

That wasn't my justification. The matter of Nazis is obviously relevant to the people in the region attacked by them and amusing given how Joe Biden and the Dems were arming and punching Nazis at the time, but I dont care what ideology fed the coup and war on protesters. Their leader was toppled in a bloody coup and they got attacked for protesting, they have the right to defend themselves. Russian fascists didn't coup the man they elected. Maybe thats why the people of the Donbas didn't join Azov in its crusade to culturally cleanse their part of Ukraine. Millions of people, a majority supported Minsk or even greater independence and Azov didn't.

When Putin decided Ukrainian "fascism" would be the lynchpin of his Ukraine policy propaganda he immediately set out re-writing history to make the narrative work. He wasn't interested in any of that before the 'coup'.

Who do you think was behind the coup? Did Putin write all those articles in western media about the Nazi problem in Ukraine after the coup? Did his propaganda convince Congress to defund Nazis? So the narrative works...? Well, there ya go.

Why do you trust people obviously relying on that narrative?

The bottom line is that while Azov was a piece of Ukraine's response to the Donbas secessions all of the Separatist forces were founded by lovely fascists like Pavel Gubarev and when these useful idiots proved insufficiently useful Putin directly replaced them with people like Moscow native known FSB agent Igor Girkin.

The Separatist armed forces were founded by fascists who attacked the people of the Donbas and directly ran all subsequent "elections" with their armed nazi thugs. Why do you think the involvement of Azov in resisting them makes it ok for the Nazi Separatists foreign backer Russia to invade Ukraine?

Russia has had RT paying conservative personalities to push their message in the US since 2014. You Berz are evidence of how successful that strategy can be.

"Nor did the speakers dwell on the fact that the far right is hardly the driving force of Ukrainian politics."

That didn't age well, they drove the coup and the war in the east for 8 years, Nato's foot soldiers. Those 'separatist forces' were people living in the Donbas and they had a right to defend themselves, it doesn't matter who helped them and why. If Nazi thugs ran the elections why did the Donbas vote for Minsk?

**Berzerker** · June 12, 2023, 21:33

Originally posted by Ming View Post

The weapons shipment was a threat... extortion to have them do HIS PERSONAL BIDDING. FACT!
The rest of you statement is just pure maga alt right nonsense.
The only pattern you see is what the alt right is lying about.
You keep claiming that the dems are the pro war party... but which party wants to keep raising the Pentagon budget and which party wants to reduce it.
Oh, that's right. Trump and his cronies in the Republican party are the leaders of the big war/defense machine. Every time the Dems even hint at lowering military spending, the Repubs go nuts.

The Dems extorted Ukraine to investigate Trump based on lies from the DNC and Clinton campaign designed to frame Trump as a traitor. And they did that before Trump wanted Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma...actual corruption, not pee tape nonsense. To say the Dems are the pro-war party would imply the GOP is not, both parties feed the war machine. But Trump got impeached over foreign policy, not asking Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma. Vindman was pissed about weapons, he was silent when Dems were employing Ukraine to get Trump.

**Berzerker** · June 12, 2023, 22:23

Originally posted by BlackCat View Post

Please try to document that without using russian sources.

What Russian sources have I used? I've seen the BBC interview a sniper, forensic evidence of the crime scene, and live police radio traffic all showing gunmen fired on cops and protesters. The cops retreated so the snipers kept shooting protesters. Odesa soon followed as the right wing cracked down on dissent. Western media starts noticing a 'problem' while Azov attacks eastern Ukrainian protesters. I've seen a few of the interviews with Right Sector et al bragging about how they were the muscle behind the revolution. I gotta believe Obama knew what was coming if he didn't outright order it, but whatever, he did embrace the coup and help it succeed. And then he and Joe armed these fine people to kill protesters along the border with Russia.

So what specifically do you want documented? Nazis killing or attacking Ukrainians? Open your eyes, they've been doing it for years with our tax dollars. The people in the Donbas must roll their eyes when US presidents lecture the world about the war on terror.

**Berzerker** · June 12, 2023, 22:41

https://youtu.be/RtPPafaA_og

16m in Larry Johnson said Ukraine has been using images of Russian 1st responders in the flood zone to claim credit for rescue efforts. Weren't we told Russia was shelling Ukrainian 1st responders? Must have been Ukrainians shelling Russians, its believe the opposite day.

**Berzerker** · June 12, 2023, 23:05

https://youtu.be/ZcK9ftfJg78

4m in, Col Daniel Davis said Ukraine was shelling flood survivors being evacuated

it is believe the opposite day

**Ming** · June 12, 2023, 23:30

Originally posted by Berzerker View Post

But Trump got impeached over foreign policy, not asking Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma

More Maga nonsense. He was impeached for using his office for personal gains.
You can argue all you want about Biden doing this or that, but it doesn't change the fact that Trump abused his power for personal gains.
He was not impeached for the weapons. Nice try, but total BS.

**N35t0r** · June 13, 2023, 04:33

Originally posted by Berzerker View Post

https://youtu.be/ZcK9ftfJg78

4m in, Col Daniel Davis said Ukraine was shelling flood survivors being evacuated

it is believe the opposite day

Most of the videos I've seen the rescuers have Ukrainian markings and/or are speaking Ukrainian.

Do these guys have actual proof? Or are they going by whatever Russia is reporting.

**Dinner** · June 13, 2023, 05:31

The actual events of 2014 instead of fantasies written in Moscow.

https://youtu.be/FBOT8bs_ews

**Donegeal** · June 13, 2023, 09:15

The Western Media Is Whitewashing the Azov Battalion

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-western-media-is-whitewashing-the-azov-battalion/ar-AA1ctVvk?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=7c9b5bec39de4444b3ca60acf1fafa81&ei=6#comments&commentId=01490eeb-4e71-45c4-a409-f8557a758fae

Vladimir Putin’s February 2022 invasion of Ukraine has already resulted in millions of losers—chief among them the civilians who’ve been tortured, murdered, forced to become refugees, or forced to spend their days worrying about loved ones fighting Russia.1 But there are also winners: the neofascists whom Putin’s war has turned into heroes.2 For seven years, Western institutions have warned about Ukraine’s Azov Movement, which began as a...

Azov is bad. I've never said otherwise, and I've never praised them in this fight. However, sometimes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". War makes strange bedfellows. Sometimes you to have look at the larger picture, and in this case, Putin and his dictatorship is the bigger picture.

My Dad has told me time and again, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." Putin and Ukraine is the current bite. Azov is a much smaller bite and we'll chew them up later; but for right now, they're helping us chew this bite.

**BeBMan** · June 13, 2023, 11:22

Originally posted by Donegeal View Post

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...9-f8557a758fae

Azov is bad. I've never said otherwise, and I've never praised them in this fight. However, sometimes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". War makes strange bedfellows. Sometimes you to have look at the larger picture, and in this case, Putin and his dictatorship is the bigger picture.

Indeed. And also, Azov is nowhere near as influential as Berz' usual rehash of Russian propaganda bits wants to depict it.

They are basically a brand of fringe/ultranationalist/neonazi which exist to some extent in lotsa countries, west or not. My main criticism would be that they are part of Ukraine's National Guard. But they certainly don't run the country.

The same brand of more-or-less-openly-fascist stuff exists in Russia (just arguing from a Greater-Russia POV), and not only in fringe groups or "thinkers" like Dugin, it is clearly present in Putin's thinking and actions.

**Dinner** · June 13, 2023, 14:00

Originally posted by Ming View Post

More Maga nonsense. He was impeached for using his office for personal gains.
You can argue all you want about Biden doing this or that, but it doesn't change the fact that Trump abused his power for personal gains.
He was not impeached for the weapons. Nice try, but total BS.

The irony being Biden literally did the same thing as V.P..

**Donegeal** · June 13, 2023, 16:35

Russian 'troops appearing to execute their fellow soldiers as they attempt to flee the field of battle'

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-troops-appearing-to-execute-their-fellow-soldiers-as-they-attempt-to-flee-the-field-of-battle/vi-AA1cuCgQ?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=b1aae9d50f1a494d95a335320cb3ac97&ei=45

Drone footage shows Russian barrier troops appearing to execute their fellow soldiers as they attempt to flee.

There is no retreat for Russian conscripts who don't even want to be there.

**BlackCat** · June 13, 2023, 17:14

Originally posted by Berzerker View Post

What Russian sources have I used? I've seen the BBC interview a sniper, forensic evidence of the crime scene, and live police radio traffic all showing gunmen fired on cops and protesters. The cops retreated so the snipers kept shooting protesters. Odesa soon followed as the right wing cracked down on dissent. Western media starts noticing a 'problem' while Azov attacks eastern Ukrainian protesters. I've seen a few of the interviews with Right Sector et al bragging about how they were the muscle behind the revolution. I gotta believe Obama knew what was coming if he didn't outright order it, but whatever, he did embrace the coup and help it succeed. And then he and Joe armed these fine people to kill protesters along the border with Russia.

So what specifically do you want documented? Nazis killing or attacking Ukrainians? Open your eyes, they've been doing it for years with our tax dollars. The people in the Donbas must roll their eyes when US presidents lecture the world about the war on terror.

You keep up talking about this "BBC interview" but there are no evidence of nazi involvement in that - more likely russian involvement. As I said, prove it without using russian sources.

**Berzerker** · June 13, 2023, 18:21

Originally posted by Ming View Post

More Maga nonsense. He was impeached for using his office for personal gains.
You can argue all you want about Biden doing this or that, but it doesn't change the fact that Trump abused his power for personal gains.
He was not impeached for the weapons. Nice try, but total BS.

During the proceedings accusers said he delayed weapons to Ukraine thus endangering national security. In reality he was impeached over hypocritical BS the Dems had already done, from soliciting foreign election interference to using money and weapons for Ukraine to investigate political opponents. The difference is the Dems were lying about Trump and the Biden clan did get millions from Burisma and Joe fired the prosecutor investigating Hunter's company. That should have been investigated regardless of who was president.

Before and after the election Democrats repeatedly asked Ukraine to investigate Trump, Ukraine even interfered in our election. Why is it okay to spend years investigating Trump over the lies the Democrats told to frame him as a traitor but he gets impeached for asking Zelensky to investigate influence peddling and election interference? The Biden family gets millions from Ukraine and Trump's the one accused of personal gain for wanting that investigated? Up is down.

Trump's argument was he didn't trust Zelensky and wanted him to take the matter seriously to earn that trust. Investigating the conspiracy to help Hillary win was a factor in his relationship with Zelensky. I dont know how much personal gain he got, Biden only became the frontrunner after the SC primary. He got impeached for delaying weapons, course Biden threatened to withhold a billion to fire the prosecutor harassing his son's company. But the security state hates Trump so we cant expect consistency from them. Didn't Obama repeal some regulation restricting the security state apparatus from propagandizing Americans? Jimmy Dore has mentioned that a few times.

**Berzerker** · June 13, 2023, 18:39

Originally posted by Dinner View Post

The irony being Biden literally did the same thing as V.P..

Biden's kid was getting millions from a company Joe protected from a prosecutor. Trump wanted that investigated.

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