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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg -
That wasn't my justification. The matter of Nazis is obviously relevant to the people in the region attacked by them and amusing given how Joe Biden and the Dems were arming and punching Nazis at the time, but I dont care what ideology fed the coup and war on protesters. Their leader was toppled in a bloody coup and they got attacked for protesting, they have the right to defend themselves. Russian fascists didn't coup the man they elected. Maybe thats why the people of the Donbas didn't join Azov in its crusade to culturally cleanse their part of Ukraine. Millions of people, a majority supported Minsk or even greater independence and Azov didn't.Originally posted by Geronimo View Post
Who do you think was behind the coup? Did Putin write all those articles in western media about the Nazi problem in Ukraine after the coup? Did his propaganda convince Congress to defund Nazis? So the narrative works...? Well, there ya go.When Putin decided Ukrainian "fascism" would be the lynchpin of his Ukraine policy propaganda he immediately set out re-writing history to make the narrative work. He wasn't interested in any of that before the 'coup'.
"Nor did the speakers dwell on the fact that the far right is hardly the driving force of Ukrainian politics."Why do you trust people obviously relying on that narrative?
The bottom line is that while Azov was a piece of Ukraine's response to the Donbas secessions all of the Separatist forces were founded by lovely fascists like Pavel Gubarev and when these useful idiots proved insufficiently useful Putin directly replaced them with people like Moscow native known FSB agent Igor Girkin.
The Separatist armed forces were founded by fascists who attacked the people of the Donbas and directly ran all subsequent "elections" with their armed nazi thugs. Why do you think the involvement of Azov in resisting them makes it ok for the Nazi Separatists foreign backer Russia to invade Ukraine?
Russia has had RT paying conservative personalities to push their message in the US since 2014. You Berz are evidence of how successful that strategy can be.
That didn't age well, they drove the coup and the war in the east for 8 years, Nato's foot soldiers. Those 'separatist forces' were people living in the Donbas and they had a right to defend themselves, it doesn't matter who helped them and why. If Nazi thugs ran the elections why did the Donbas vote for Minsk?
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The Dems extorted Ukraine to investigate Trump based on lies from the DNC and Clinton campaign designed to frame Trump as a traitor. And they did that before Trump wanted Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma...actual corruption, not pee tape nonsense. To say the Dems are the pro-war party would imply the GOP is not, both parties feed the war machine. But Trump got impeached over foreign policy, not asking Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma. Vindman was pissed about weapons, he was silent when Dems were employing Ukraine to get Trump.Originally posted by Ming View Post
The weapons shipment was a threat... extortion to have them do HIS PERSONAL BIDDING. FACT!
The rest of you statement is just pure maga alt right nonsense.
The only pattern you see is what the alt right is lying about.
You keep claiming that the dems are the pro war party... but which party wants to keep raising the Pentagon budget and which party wants to reduce it.
Oh, that's right. Trump and his cronies in the Republican party are the leaders of the big war/defense machine. Every time the Dems even hint at lowering military spending, the Repubs go nuts.
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Saying Trump's impeachment was over foreign policy is pure effing BS, Berz. -
Alexander Vindman reported Trump's call because he used weapons to get his investigation. If Trump never tied the weapons to his request he wouldn't have been impeached. Ofc the Dems are hypocrites about what he did, they were telling Ukraine to investigate Trump and Biden used a billion $ bribe to fire the prosecutor harassing Burisma. Ukraine did interfere in our election and Trump wanted that investigated.
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What Russian sources have I used? I've seen the BBC interview a sniper, forensic evidence of the crime scene, and live police radio traffic all showing gunmen fired on cops and protesters. The cops retreated so the snipers kept shooting protesters. Odesa soon followed as the right wing cracked down on dissent. Western media starts noticing a 'problem' while Azov attacks eastern Ukrainian protesters. I've seen a few of the interviews with Right Sector et al bragging about how they were the muscle behind the revolution. I gotta believe Obama knew what was coming if he didn't outright order it, but whatever, he did embrace the coup and help it succeed. And then he and Joe armed these fine people to kill protesters along the border with Russia.Originally posted by BlackCat View Post
So what specifically do you want documented? Nazis killing or attacking Ukrainians? Open your eyes, they've been doing it for years with our tax dollars. The people in the Donbas must roll their eyes when US presidents lecture the world about the war on terror.Comment
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16m in Larry Johnson said Ukraine has been using images of Russian 1st responders in the flood zone to claim credit for rescue efforts. Weren't we told Russia was shelling Ukrainian 1st responders? Must have been Ukrainians shelling Russians, its believe the opposite day.Comment
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4m in, Col Daniel Davis said Ukraine was shelling flood survivors being evacuated
it is believe the opposite dayComment
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Originally posted by Berzerker View Post
More Maga nonsense. He was impeached for using his office for personal gains.
You can argue all you want about Biden doing this or that, but it doesn't change the fact that Trump abused his power for personal gains.
He was not impeached for the weapons. Nice try, but total BS.
Keep on Civin'
RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron OComment
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Most of the videos I've seen the rescuers have Ukrainian markings and/or are speaking Ukrainian.Originally posted by Berzerker View Post
Do these guys have actual proof? Or are they going by whatever Russia is reporting.Indifference is BlissComment
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Azov is bad. I've never said otherwise, and I've never praised them in this fight. However, sometimes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". War makes strange bedfellows. Sometimes you to have look at the larger picture, and in this case, Putin and his dictatorship is the bigger picture.
My Dad has told me time and again, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." Putin and Ukraine is the current bite. Azov is a much smaller bite and we'll chew them up later; but for right now, they're helping us chew this bite.Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
1992-Perot
, 1996-Perot , 2000-Bush 
, 2004-Bush :|, 2008-Obama :|, 2012-Obama , 2016-Clinton , 2020-Biden 
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Indeed. And also, Azov is nowhere near as influential as Berz' usual rehash of Russian propaganda bits wants to depict it.Originally posted by Donegeal View Post
They are basically a brand of fringe/ultranationalist/neonazi which exist to some extent in lotsa countries, west or not. My main criticism would be that they are part of Ukraine's National Guard. But they certainly don't run the country.
The same brand of more-or-less-openly-fascist stuff exists in Russia (just arguing from a Greater-Russia POV), and not only in fringe groups or "thinkers" like Dugin, it is clearly present in Putin's thinking and actions.BlahComment
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The irony being Biden literally did the same thing as V.P..Originally posted by Ming View Post
More Maga nonsense. He was impeached for using his office for personal gains.
You can argue all you want about Biden doing this or that, but it doesn't change the fact that Trump abused his power for personal gains.
He was not impeached for the weapons. Nice try, but total BS.
Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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There is no retreat for Russian conscripts who don't even want to be there.Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
1992-Perot, 1996-Perot , 2000-Bush , 2004-Bush :|, 2008-Obama :|, 2012-Obama , 2016-Clinton , 2020-Biden Comment
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You keep up talking about this "BBC interview" but there are no evidence of nazi involvement in that - more likely russian involvement. As I said, prove it without using russian sources.Originally posted by Berzerker View PostWith or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven WeinbergComment
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You think a dam in Ukraine belongs to Russia, eh? Also, yes, without a doubt Russia mined the dam half a year back, Russia had sole access to the control room, and Ukraine didn't have access as Russia blew up the road from the Ukrainian side half a year ago. -
Yes, Russia controlled the dam control house and had the only road access. It would take vehicles to transport thousands of tons of explosives and we have video evidence from Russians themselves as well as videos of individual Russians admitting they had mined the dam back in Nov 2022.
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During the proceedings accusers said he delayed weapons to Ukraine thus endangering national security. In reality he was impeached over hypocritical BS the Dems had already done, from soliciting foreign election interference to using money and weapons for Ukraine to investigate political opponents. The difference is the Dems were lying about Trump and the Biden clan did get millions from Burisma and Joe fired the prosecutor investigating Hunter's company. That should have been investigated regardless of who was president.Originally posted by Ming View Post
More Maga nonsense. He was impeached for using his office for personal gains.
You can argue all you want about Biden doing this or that, but it doesn't change the fact that Trump abused his power for personal gains.
He was not impeached for the weapons. Nice try, but total BS.
Before and after the election Democrats repeatedly asked Ukraine to investigate Trump, Ukraine even interfered in our election. Why is it okay to spend years investigating Trump over the lies the Democrats told to frame him as a traitor but he gets impeached for asking Zelensky to investigate influence peddling and election interference? The Biden family gets millions from Ukraine and Trump's the one accused of personal gain for wanting that investigated? Up is down.
Trump's argument was he didn't trust Zelensky and wanted him to take the matter seriously to earn that trust. Investigating the conspiracy to help Hillary win was a factor in his relationship with Zelensky. I dont know how much personal gain he got, Biden only became the frontrunner after the SC primary. He got impeached for delaying weapons, course Biden threatened to withhold a billion to fire the prosecutor harassing his son's company. But the security state hates Trump so we cant expect consistency from them. Didn't Obama repeal some regulation restricting the security state apparatus from propagandizing Americans? Jimmy Dore has mentioned that a few times.
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