German government trying to force children to go to mosque

[Elok]

The closest I get to familiarity with modern American public schools' religion coverage is sitting in on a class of seventh graders on the one day their SS teacher went over Christianity and Islam. He'd obviously just looked the latter up the night before or thereabouts; there were various glaring errors and and the whole thing was rather anodyne and designed to reassure everybody that really Christianity and Islam say very similar stuff and they shouldn't be killing each other so much. The latter part is true, but probably not really necessary to say to religiously apathetic post-millennials, many of whom were surprised to hear that Jesus got executed.

Visiting a mosque would at least have given them a somewhat more robust education on the subject, and been more accurate to boot.

[Ben Kenobi]

Seems to me like german Catholics already found a way ... by either not confessing it (and practicing premarital sex and contraception without telling/asking the church), like already my catholic schoolmates did in the 80s ... or by leaving the catholic church.

People choose to sin all the time, I'm not sure why it's news. We're all a group of dirty wretched sinners. The Church's doctrines are, thankfully not dependent on what I do, or what any of us do, but on Christ himself. They stand without us and they'll be standing long after we are gone.

What I find sad, however is, that the chairman of the catholic bishops conference in germany practiced censorship (by telling ther bishops to keep some critical questions away from the believers and instead telling them to answer the questions themselves).

What are your thoughts on the seal of the confessional? It has nothing to do with censorship. Everything to do with the state of their souls. I have no right to subject them to public confession. Nor do they have the right to ask the students. I'd refuse if it were my students.

[Lorizael]

...many of whom were surprised to hear that Jesus got executed.

wut.

[Elok]

Yeppers. The newest generation of unbelievers, in my experience, don't have the slightest damn clue what it's all about. They just know it as something their family doesn't do.

[Ben Kenobi]

Indeed. I, myself, didn't even know that Christ was executed that he died on the cross until I was 19.

[Lorizael]

Look, I don't believe, and I also don't think religion necessarily has to be an important part of society, but you sure as **** can't deny that it ****ing has been. If you want to understand anything about Western culture circa 2000 AD, then Jesus H. ****ing Christ Almighty On A Stick you have to know about... well... I think you get the idea.

[Giancarlo]

Religion has been a part of the past civilizations and so forth. It's also been responsible for some of the bloodiest wars (or often used a key reason for that - Hitler often said he was on a mission from god and the Catholic Church was backing him and Mussolini).

Many structures and buildings were made to honor the gods.

But that's the past. Slavery was accepted in that time too.

This is now. We don't live in the time of the dark ages. Someone like Ben is free to voice whatever he wants, but he doesn't have a right to force his religious beliefs onto others who don't conform with his standards of morality. I obviously defy many norms. I don't care what he or anyone else thinks anymore.

[Proteus_MST]

...

What are your thoughts on the seal of the confessional? It has nothing to do with censorship. Everything to do with the state of their souls. I have no right to subject them to public confession. Nor do they have the right to ask the students. I'd refuse if it were my students.

If it is done as an anonymous survey (i.e. the people get the survey in paper form and send/give them back in an anonymous enevelope I don't see how it would be a confession.
Lower ranking pastors were able to get their sheep to participate (and answer also the critical questions). I am sure that the bishops, as well, would have been able to organize/delegate the execiution of the polls in a way, that german porinciples of data security and anonymity would hjave been observed.

I cannot see the decision of the chairman of the german bishops conference (to censor some questions) as something else than simple cowardice (of the kind: If the big boss/pope gets to know what his sheep in germany really think about certain doctrines, he will surely think that something is wrong in germany and we (the bishops) will have to suffer ... lets just fake part of the whole survey so he doesn't get into this dangerous path of thinking)

[Ben Kenobi]

If it is done as an anonymous survey (i.e. the people get the survey in paper form and send/give them back in an anonymous enevelope I don't see how it would be a confession.

Again, why are you doing the survey? What do you hope to gain by having someone outside the Catholic church conduct it?

We do informal surveys but again, they are not public and they are a method by which we assess competency, etc. Also it gives us a sense of where our students are at. But they are most certainly not public, and nor would they ever be. The purpose being so that I have an idea of what my students do or do not know. Aside from that? We wouldn't ever do them.

Lower ranking pastors were able to get their sheep to participate

Their first duty is to protect their flock. They should have declined to participate.

I cannot see the decision of the chairman of the german bishops conference (to censor some questions) as something else than simple cowardice

There are many things that are not for public consumption and the Bishop should never have participated in the survey. Again, why are you doing it and for what purpose?

[Proteus_MST]

...
Their first duty is to protect their flock. They should have declined to participate.
...

The survey was from he Vatican ... so what you are saying is, that the Bishops should protect their sheep from the Vatican/the pope himself (or more exactly, the sheep should be protected from the next Synod for which the Questionnaire was prepared)?

Also, its purpose should have been clear ... the pope/vatican obviously wanted to know what his sheep really thought about certain things in the churchs doctrine and to give them a chance for their voices (and possible criticism) to be heard at the Synod (for which the Questionnaie was destined to be used)

This is the text of the questionnaire btw. (the one before the german bishops conference censored it):

http://www.catholic.org.nz/_uploads/_cknw/files/Synod%20Preapratory%20Document%20Lineamenta%20AEIII%20IN.pdf

(More exactly, the german bishops conference didn't want the pope to hear the real opinions of german catholics on question blocks 1,2, 5, 7 and 8)

[Bereta_Eder]

unfortunately the official organized deep orthodox church has been a force of regression since for ever.

This comes in justapoxtiction to the humble, benevolent kind and faithful priesthood that indeed gives solace and humanity.

its role in the yugoslav wars was incemental and was working together with the state.

out of the blue we discovered we had such huge ties with the serbs, we didn't even know who they were yesterday. however tapping on the ubelievably strong collective subconscious the church and state managed to convince us about things that couldn't be justified. a blindfold.

yes it happens all over and doesn't need religion to happen but it was something to behold..

grab them by the *****, if you will.

Even now it's powerful particulalry in education. but even when tsipras himself seems to bend, you understand that it is society that wants it that way.

fortunately a mixture of deeply rooted leftwingism as wel as a benevolent approach of christianity, humane, forgiving and loving is a more than adequate controlling obstacle for those forces of the church that are regressive

[Bereta_Eder]

To elaborate I have a pet peeve.

I voted for tsipras to do things differently, instead some things he does the same.

You had a hardcore leftisti minister of education, he went against the archbishop. he's now dust. how much power does this damn church has anyway. who's running this place.

to make matters worse tsipras apointed as subminister of education a well known loonie case. he identifies something like communist neo-orthodox that poor sod of university proffessor.

if I wanted crap I'd go to the crap house.


very dissapointed

I had enough of loonies

and it's so clear, the best don't get the positions they deserve. the pals do, internal balances dictate the appointments.

it's so disgusting I'd be rooting for plato's republic if I wasn't a democrat

but that's what you get when those who know how only care for their pockets and they leave the field open for the loonies.
also every society gets what it deserves. (sometimes)

[OneFootInTheGrave]

In the Balkans, and to a large degree whole Eastern Europe the church has way more power than it shows, be it orthodox or catholic here.

In ex-Yu they had no power, and they hated the old regime, even though that other than "no political power" it was business as usual for them. This is probably the largest single force behind the 1990's war. Without the war it would have been much harder for them to reclaim their "rightful" place in the society around here, with it, it went as smooth as butter.

By the time it was over in 1995 the Orthodox church was in the driving seat in Serbia and Montenegro, Catholics in Croatia and Islam was "rediscovered" by the bosniaks in Bosnia. At least 100 years is required (if not more) for those deep rooted control mechanisms to be forgotten and taken over by something else. 45 years is clearly not enough.

[Bereta_Eder]

thankfully he appointed as minister a guy from the reformist communist fraction, so I guess that's ok

[Bereta_Eder]

I still have that comic by that croatian guy that explained it very well. unfortunately it's on the other computer so I can't tell you his name
but it was awesome, chilling and clear