German government trying to force children to go to mosque

[rah]

It was nice to not have to read drivel like that for a week.

Yes, that week went by too fast.
Hopefully it won't be long before his next vacation.

[Proteus_MST]

Couple of points here.

One - Freedom of religion is protected under the first amendment. Parents have every right to refuse permission to allow their kids to go on a field trip like this. Doesn't even matter why - and this cuts both ways. Ultimately, education is a parental responsibility. If you value education your child is going to get more out of school than if you don't value education.

Freedom of religion only goes far to a certain extent, at least in germany.
Example:
If children (below 14 years) of Jehovas witnesses need a blood transfusion to stay alive and their parents deny this out of religious reasons, they can get their right of custody taken away by court (for the duration of the treatment) because the right to live of the kid is deemed to be more important than any religious convitions of the parents.

Two, I find it a rather two-faced statement to say, "we should be removing bigotry" while at the same time claiming that it's ok to treat Christians different from others. Doesn't square up. If you believe that religion doesn't have a place in the public sphere, then I can't see how you defend mosque trips.

They aren't treated differently ... the class was a geography class (and the topic were historical and current developments in the near east/the islamic world), which means that everyone went there, regardless of faith (i.e. for example also jewish pupils, buddhists, hindus or atheists, if there were any in the class)

Three, the argument, "we need to show children that ISIS isn't Islam"? That's not education, that's indoctrination. Would you take kids to a synagogue to explain anti-Semitism and the influence that it has on history? If not, why not? ISIS is a part of Islam and trying to convince others that this is not the case strikes me as special pleading. You'd be better off explaining what ISIS believes and why they believe that killing infidels is the way to go, instead of whitewashing their motivations altogether. Arguing that they are random middle-eastern terrorists does nothing to explain why they believe what they do or how their worldview influences their actions. If you believe that you're getting 72 virgins for slaughtering an infidel - well, that's kind of important, no?

There are school excursions (for the whole class, i.e. not only the christians) that include visits in synagogues, just as there are school excursions that include visits to cathedrals of other places or christian worship

[Giancarlo]

Couple of points here.

More like endless verbal diarrhea that doesn't respond to what I actually posted.

One - freedom of religion is protected under the first amendment. Parents have every right to refuse permission to allow their kids to go on a field trip like this. Doesn't even matter why - and this cuts both ways. Ultimately, education is a parental responsibility. If you value education your child is going to get more out of school than if you don't value education.

One - The kids weren't forced to go the mosque. It was entirely optional. Did you actually read anything in this thread or were you waiting until your ban expired to respond with your knee jerk crap?

Two, I find it a rather two-faced statement to say, "we should be removing bigotry" while at the same time claiming that it's ok to treat Christians different from others. Doesn't square up. If you believe that religion doesn't have a place in the public sphere, then I can't see how you defend mosque trips.

No. Not two faced at all because I never said that. You're lying again.

Three, the argument, "we need to show children that ISIS isn't Islam"? That's not education, that's indoctrination. Would you take kids to a synagogue to explain anti-Semitism and the influence that it has on history? If not, why not? ISIS is a part of Islam and trying to convince others that this is not the case strikes me as special pleading. You'd be better off explaining what ISIS believes and why they believe that killing infidels is the way to go, instead of whitewashing their motivations altogether. Arguing that they are random middle-eastern terrorists does nothing to explain why they believe what they do or how their worldview influences their actions. If you believe that you're getting 72 virgins for slaughtering an infidel - well, that's kind of important, no?

I never said that either. But then again you're Ben. Full of crap and a liar.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hopefully it won't be long before his next vacation.

Mingapulco isn't bad this time of year.

[Ben Kenobi]

Freedom of religion only goes far to a certain extent, at least in germany.

Example:
If children (below 14 years) of Jehovas witnesses need a blood transfusion to stay alive and their parents deny this out of religious reasons, they can get their right of custody taken away by court (for the duration of the treatment) because the right to live of the kid is deemed to be more important than any religious convitions of the parents.

And yet, if your 14 year old wanted to kill the baby inside of her, that's ok. If one really believes that the right to life is more important, then that applies across the board. Rather, the argument isn't that right to life is important, but that bodily autonomy is more important. You believe it's inappropriate for parents to make that decision about thei child's body.

IMO, I think that is rightly decided. Parents have a duty to protect their children. Even if the dictates of a religion state otherwise, if your religion would cause your child to die, that I have a problem with. Your duty to protect your child is more important.

They aren't treated differently ... the class was a geography class (and the topic were historical and current developments in the near east/the islamic world), which means that everyone went there, regardless of faith (i.e. for example also jewish pupils, buddhists, hindus or atheists, if there were any in the class)

Actually, unless the school has booked a field trip so that students can see that Christians are good people, then yes, they are being treated differently. Which of course, raises the question as to why it's important to whitewash what muslims do, but not other faiths. And again, freedom of religion would permit a parent to pull his child out of that field trip.

There are school excursions (for the whole class, i.e. not only the christians) that include visits in synagogues, just as there are school excursions that include visits to cathedrals of other places or christian worship

Are they? I had a secular education. And at that age we were taught about Islam but nothing about Christianity/Catholicism, etc. The only time I learned anything about Judaism is when I was in RCIA.

[Ben Kenobi]

One - The kids weren't forced to go the mosque. It was entirely optional. Did you actually read anything in this thread or were you waiting until your ban expired to respond with your knee jerk crap?

Were the parents fined? Then it wasn't optional and any lawyer worth his salt could argue otherwise. You don't fine into compliance for optional activities.

Not two faced at all because I never said that.

As an advocate for secularization, how do you justify a field trip to a mosque? Shouldn't we be getting religion out of schools?

[Giancarlo]

The parents were not fined for them not going to the field trip. They withheld them from the school.

Do us a favor and read this thread you lazy tool.

[Ben Kenobi]

The parents were not fined for them not going to the field trip. They withheld them from the school.

Then, the activity in and of itself was not optional. Once again, you don't fine into compliance for optional activities.

Do us a favor and read this thread you lazy tool.

I have. Any lawyer worth his salt would quite easily argue that if you're fining into compliance the activity is not optional. Would they permit the student to go to school, but to remain in the classroom?

I'm still curious with how you reconcile secularization with trips to the mosque.

[Giancarlo]

The activity was entirely optional. Taking their kids out of school wasn't. The kids could have stayed at the school.

You're an idiot. You don't read.

Edit: By the way, clown... if they visited a Cathedral for academic reasons and to look at architecture/history or other aspects, I'd be fine with it.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Ministry also decreed that children cannot sit in a different class while the rest of their own class is on the trip, which is designed to give children an insight into Muslim society.

That's not what the article says. So yes, the activity is mandatory and is a violation of the conscience rights of the parents and the child.

[Ben Kenobi]

By the way, clown... if they visited a Cathedral for academic reasons and to look at architecture/history or other aspects

Would you be ok with them attending mass and hearing a sermon preached about the sinfulness of homosexuality?

[Giancarlo]

That's not what the article says. So yes, the activity is mandatory and is a violation of the conscience rights of the parents and the child.

The activity was NOT mandatory. The original article is incorrect.

[Ben Kenobi]

The activity was NOT mandatory. The original article is incorrect.

Do you have any evidence for the source of your claim that it would have been fine for the child to go to school but not attend the field trip?

[Giancarlo]

You need to re-read the thread, lazy one.

[Proteus_MST]

...

Are they? I had a secular education. And at that age we were taught about Islam but nothing about Christianity/Catholicism, etc. The only time I learned anything about Judaism is when I was in RCIA.

Yep, there are ... which should be no surprise.
Considering the history of germany (i.e. third Reich etc. ) it is one important duty for schools (and especially history classes), to teach the pupils in a way, that they don't get intop the grips of rightist/Neonazi movements.
And many schools combine this (in civics or history classes) with visits to former KZs, but also to jewish synagogues.

With regards to visits to christian places of worship this also should be no surprise. Christianity played a major role in european society for more than a millenium ... and religion and the cathedrals were intertwined in this history to a large degree (in good as in bad) and are some of the finest examples of architecture (with the catholic church having a similar power over worldly rulers as nowadays islam has over, for example, the Sheikhs in Saudi Arabia).

Take for example the cologne cathedral, which was built in the 13th century (and which, of course, still is a house of christian worship) ... centuries before someone named Columbus and more than half a millenium before the USA and Canada gained their status as independent countries. And this is only one simple example ... every european country has churches/cathedrals that are older than the USA/Canada (likewise spain has also mosques that are older than the USA/Canada, thanks to the moorish rule that lasted till the Reconquista)

Considering how young the Canadian and US-American societies are in comparison (with most churches probably less than 2 centuries old) and also consdiering that (AFAIK) neither in the USA nor Canadian history christian religious organizations (like the catholic church) played an as dominant role as in european history I can understand that there are only few school excursions to christian places of worship in Canada