Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Berzerker]

Why would you think that?

I just told you,

"Human society" was bestowed upon us by the Serpent, not God. You just argued we're better because of the tree

One, humanity has value because they are made in the image of God.

More value than life? People were made in the image of god before the fall from grace and you think we're better people now thanks to the Serpent's meddling

Two I don't believe we can have a human society without Him.

You made 2 points and neither addresses what I said.

You believe the Serpent made us morally superior to nature, morally superior to human existence prior to the fall, morally superior to Adam and Eve before they disobeyed God. You dont see any irony in that?

[Giancarlo]

[Proteus_MST]

The problem is that there's no real record for this. The argument that Israelites had polygamy first and then abandoned it for God, doesn't square with the sources that we do have.

I never said anything about polygamy ... I talked about polytheism. I hope you know the difference between those 2. If not I am really really worried about the kids you are teaching
Also, we have archaeological indications about early israelite polytehism and also the bible itself contaisn hint at it.

That's a strange argument. Egyptian religions are far older than Judaism. The argument in favor of Egyptian religions isn't that Israel was really polygamous.

Again, I speak of Polytheism and not about Polygamy.
And I don't speak in favor of egyptian polytehism ... I see egyptian religions on the same level as judaism and every other religion ... i.e. they have to be measured at the same standard. I see egyptian poly- and monotheism to be as true or false as judaism.

This was true in Ancient times too, prior to Christianity.

Of course

But you don't. You evaluate the truth claim of Christianity and Judaism differently. You do realize that Zoroasterianism is also monotheistic?

Wrong ... I negate any claim of any religion, that it is the salutary "only true" religion
And yes, of course I know that Zoroastrism is monotheistic ... I intentionally mentioned some polytheistic as well as some monotheistic religions

No, what you're really saying is that you are upset that Christianity disagrees with you. The problem is not really the religion, the problem is you. "Imposing religion", well you're doing that on us - by forcing us to pay for contraception and abortion. The whole homeschooling argument is a fine example.

I don't have a problem with christianity disagreeing with me. I only have a problem if its members can impose their religious rules or contents upon all people in a state that should be secular.
As for your people paying for abortions and contraceptives ... well, you don't get to pay only for the services you want. US pacifists also had to pay for Bushs iraq wars no matter whether they wanted it or not ... likewise the USA is subsidizing churches (by not having them need to pay property taxes) no matter whether atheists want it or not.
In medieval times, people also had to pay for catholic inquisition ... and the resulting executions of people deemed to be witches/sorcerors ... I am sure you would have had no problem with it

[Ben Kenobi]

that it is the salutary "only true" religion
And yes, of course I know that Zoroastrism is monotheistic ... I intentionally mentioned some polytheistic as well as some monotheistic religions

Blah. Polytheism, not polygamy. Two, why single out Christianity then? Persians had a history of assimilating religions into Zoroasterianism.

I only have a problem if its members can impose their religious rules or contents upon all people in a state that should be secular.

Right now secularism seems to be the predominant religion and covers up it's religious tenets by saying, "it's not a religion," which of course it is. Arguing for a materialistic worldview is no different.

As for your people paying for abortions and contraceptives ... well, you don't get to pay only for the services you want

Forcing people to pay for abortion is wrong. As for war - national defense is a legitimate expense of the state. No state can exist without it.

likewise the USA is subsidizing churches (by not having them need to pay property taxes

One, it's not a subsidy if it's an exemption from taxation. Two, the reason this is done is because of the charitable activities done by the Church. Money spent on property taxes would be taking away from these charitable activities. The Church is also way more efficient, which is why this is a sensible law.

There are all kinds of nonsense subsidies for 'green' boondoggles. Like I said, 'Green' is a religion these days and it has official state support.

In medieval times, people also had to pay for catholic inquisition ... and the resulting executions of people deemed to be witches/sorcerors ... I am sure you would have had no problem with it

Right argument, wrong example. England had to pay tithes to the Pope, collected in France during the 100 years war. This was a big part of the erosion in Catholicism at the time in England during the Avignon papacy.

[Ben Kenobi]

"Human society" was bestowed upon us by the Serpent, not God. You just argued we're better because of the tree

Which came first, The garden the serpent? Human society came from God.

More value than life? People were made in the image of god before the fall from grace and you think we're better people now thanks to the Serpent's meddling

No I don't. Once again, taking the wrong presupposition leads to the wrong conclusion. I think we have dignity and worth and value in that we are made in the image of God, and human society insofar as it recognizes natural law is a product of God has been a blessing.

Jettisoning these principles, will have the same result as the rebellion from God in Genesis. Suffering, pain and death.

You believe the Serpent made us morally superior to nature

No, I believe God did. The Garden was there first.

You dont see any irony in that?

Once again, taking the wrong presupposition leads to the wrong conclusion.

[Giancarlo]

Right now secularism seems to be the predominant religion and covers up it's religious tenets by saying, "it's not a religion," which of course it is. Arguing for a materialistic worldview is no different.

What a stupid misconception. How is it a religion? It simply is arguing for neutrality. You want to put religion into government and enforce religious rules onto others. Secularism merely argues for neutrality. You sir are lying once again.

Forcing people to pay for abortion is wrong. As for war - national defense is a legitimate expense of the state. No state can exist without it.

Forcing people to pay taxes while churches don't is wrong.

[Ming]

Again... BK shows his true colors. Freedom of religion means only freedom to Catholics and nobody else.

[rah]

One, it's not a subsidy if it's an exemption from taxation.

You obviously don't know how property taxes work. The taxing district comes up with their budget, then divides it among those in the taxing district based on valuations.
If the church is paying nothing than the rest of the citizens in the district have to make it up. So the citizens are subsidizing the church by paying their share.

[Jon Miller]

That doesn't make sense, it would imply that the taxes would go up or down on a yearly basis (as valuations change and people come in/out of the district).

What does make sense is that the tax level is set by the citizens based on who they vote for, and this tax level ends up providing a given tax district with an income, where certain things (churches, hospitals, museums, etc) obviously do not count towards that income.

JM
(Namely, it would imply that as valuations increase, tax would decrease.)

[Jon Miller]

That doesn't make sense, it would imply that the taxes would go up or down on a yearly basis (as valuations change and people come in/out of the district).

What does make sense is that the tax level is set by the citizens based on who they vote for, and this tax level ends up providing a given tax district with an income, where certain things (churches, hospitals, museums, etc) obviously do not count towards that income.

JM
(Namely, it would imply that as valuations increase, tax would decrease.)

[rah]

They tweak the valuations also.
This year in Chicago they did increased the rate and many had an increased assessment also. They got the double wammy and had increases of up to 30%.
Brutal. By doing it both ways they help obscure what they are doing, but final result is hard to hide.

[Jon Miller]

Yes, but if the valuations go up your taxes go up, not down. So your picture of how property taxes work is incorrect.

It is the same way as saying that the park is cheating you out of property tax because it is a park and not a mall.

Or that your neighbours are because they have houses and not a condominium.

JM

[rah]

Sometime your valuation goes down. There's a lot of money being made in challenging your assessment.
You can't challenge the rate.

And since a park is for everyone I don't see how the community is being cheated.

And the condo vs house makes no sense. Of course a single home is usually assessed more than a condo. But not always.

[Jon Miller]

So is a mall.

One is a for profit and the other produces no profit.

That is the difference.

You just single out religious institutions because you have some beef with them (That I don't entirely understand, because you aren't an atheist and are even a member of an organised religion).

JM

[Ming]

Nobody is "singling" out religious institutions. Most people don't mind them getting tax deductions for their charity work.
I just don't see why they should be treated special when nobody else is. I hear all the time, well Charities get all the tax breaks, and that's fine since that's their primary function.
But Charity is NOT the primary function of Religion. The Catholic Church does amass wealth that is not directed to charity.
Why should they not pay property taxes when everybody else does. I give money to charity, why can I not pay property taxes?

Wanting religions to pay taxes like everybody else doesn't mean you have a beef with them... Many just don't see why they deserve special treatment.