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**Jon Miller** · June 30, 2016, 18:16

Originally posted by Lorizael View Post

This is a really lame argument that doesn't refute anything in particular.

A lot of psychology studies do not have much relevance in India or China or outside of white middle class americans. See http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/05/weird.aspx and many others.

So I don't really value such studies.

JM

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 19:24

I too had fear of gays when I was young. (mainly because I didn't know any so my opinion was formed from comments from people like BK)
Once you have gay friends, it's different.

You presume far too much about what you do not know.

Do recall, rah, as I have said many times; I did not grow up Christian. You seem to think that I was taught all the bible stories in my cradle.

No, rah. Think about it for awhile and it will perhaps be more clear. I was taught secular humanism. I was educated in a public school. Both of my parents are not Christian and both are teachers of their sort.

I had the same exact western humanistic education as most here on Apolyton have had. I am a graduate from a liberal arts school. I did not go to a Christian school for any part of my education. I did not go to church or to mass.

The first time I entered a Catholic church was when I was 19, and I couldn't stand being in there. I was terrified by it all.

No, Rah. I grew up with knowing homosexual people. All my life I have known what they have gone through and some are still my friends even now. Some have confided into me what it was actually like and I have stood and listened.

What I have heard, what I have gathered... from my actual experiences - is that it's really not a very happy life. I want my friends to be happy, and not miserable. But... even with the life they have chosen they are depressed, angry and sad. They believe that they should be happy and put on a mask for folks like you, rah. A mask so that others don't see what they really feel.

**Aeson** · June 30, 2016, 19:27

Ben was brought up Wiccan, working in an organic supermarket, until one day black potheads stole his snowblower and everything changed ...

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 19:43

Not really ... our public schools have a mix of people of different cultural background, but also among different religions.

*sigh*. That's not my point. You are arguing that certain presuppositions, among them, "diversity is strength", is a value that ought to be shared by everyone in the school. All you've done is -traded- ideologies. You talk about parallel societies and then go off and say that people wanting to remain apart from the whole are automatically strange, and wrong.

(But not only about their own faith ... religious lessons, at least in my case (i.e. evangelical) also included one year in which thew main topic was basic knowledge about other religions ... I assume the lessons for the catholic pupils included this as well)

How does one reconcile the teaching that the Catholic church has the fullness of Truth with what you believe schools ought to teach? That is the problem. The catechism does not teach what you believe, and if your beliefs are to prevail - that means these lessons have to water these things down. Which is what actually ends up happening.

Parents who want to indoctrinate their kids into believing, that a god created the world 6000 years ago can still do so, outside of school ...

but they should expect their kids to fail at Biology (evolution) and Geography (earths history) lessons in this case

Louis Pasteur believed in those things. Would you fail him? That is precisely the problem. You're so preoccupied with your cudgel that you fail to see the forest for the trees. Science doesn't require one to be an atheist.

Well, your church however seems to be quite happy with the things the german government provides

Some, yes but more perceptive folks will note the problems with the German bishops dependent upon the state and not their parishioners.

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 19:47

Ben was brought up Wiccan, working in an organic supermarket, until one day black potheads stole his snowblower and everything changed ...

No, I was pretty much your ordinary Oprah watching Canuckistani middle class kid with a dash of social justice and well insulated from anything truly messy. Sent away to a large, secular university, and lived in a large, co-ed residence not particularly known for it's religious rigidity. The dorm had an inside joke that it had originally been a theological college, but the actual collegians lived elsewhere.

I took piano lessons from a fellow student known to be homosexual. Much like Asher in that regard. We used to talk for a considerable period of time. He was not a happy man. I had the opportunity to observe - up close his day to day life.

Then I got to see the day to day life of the Christians. Who have played a role in my life every day, since. There was no question the comparison between the two. I wanted to have that joy, that sense of peace that they radiated. It was not for lack of experience with the other side that I made the decisions that I did. I saw all too well that if someone (who was quite a bit like me), was so profoundly unhappy with his life, why did I want to have anything to do with it?

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 19:58

I thought about it and had to agree, that everyone cherrypicks the stuff from the bible (including the fundamentalists themselves) ... and disregards the stuff in the bible, that either is contradtory (with nowadays scientific knowledge) or is incompatible with nowadays morals (and/or paintsa a rather dark picture of god himself).

I also saw that according to this principle (i.e. staying true to the bible) most christians wouldn't be considered christians ... and that, in order to stay true nto the bible, one would have to throw most of the science overboard and also adapt (nowadays) rather dubious morals.

There is nothing in the bible that dates creation to 4000 BC. That, is the work of a John Ussher, which is very late, and dates only to the 17th century. Citing his work in a serious theological discussion is akin to discussing pre-Newtonian mechanics. The only way you get to that number is if you make a whole lot of assumptions - you are standing on a rickety ladder, of which you've got a point that you don't know about - balanced on a point that you also know nothing about and then trying to extend that based on a document without dates whatsoever.

What other science does Christianity force people to reject? I was a physicist. I see nothing in anything we were taught that contradicts the Bible.

**rah** · June 30, 2016, 20:09

No, Rah. I grew up with knowing homosexual people. All my life I have known what they have gone through and some are still my friends even now. Some have confided into me what it was actually like and I have stood and listened.

But obviously you didn't hear.
That makes you the crappiest of friends that I've ever heard. And person that would deny their friends happiness can't be considered a friend.
You are a more horrible person than I thought, and I didn't think that was possible.

**Aeson** · June 30, 2016, 20:10

The organic Wiccan out find vengence for stolen snowblowers is a much better story.

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 20:15

But obviously you didn't hear.

No, rah. I heard what he was actually trying to say, not the mask that he put on for people like you. When you're sad and unhappy and lonely, the only thing worse than all of these is for well-meaning people like yourself telling him what makes him happy is what makes him unhappy.

I wasn't a Christian then, rah. I had no reason to interpret his anger with his life as anything other than for what it was, his sadness and unhappiness.

That makes you the crappiest of friends that I've ever heard. And person that would deny their friends happiness can't be considered a friend.

No, rah. He's stayed my friend since because I was one of the few he could tell his real feelings.

You are a more horrible person than I thought, and I didn't think that was possible.

Yes, I can imagine so. If you've been hurting people without meaning to, the man who tells you that you're actually hurting the people you think you're trying to help is your enemy.

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 20:21

The organic Wiccan out find vengence for stolen snowblowers is a much better story.

"Harry Potter and the Search for the Driven Snow"

**rah** · June 30, 2016, 20:22

What a ****ing hypocrite. You've spent this entire thread saying you refuse to apologize for any bad treatment and the pope is wrong to suggest it.
While claiming you have gay friends.
Have you told "YOUR" gay friends that? I'm sure they would be disappointed that you don't think they should have the same rights as you. (civil, I'm not talking religious)
That's not a friend in my opinion.

God, you're either a liar or disgusting.

**Ben Kenobi** · June 30, 2016, 20:31

What a ****ing hypocrite. You've spent this entire thread saying you refuse to apologize for any bad treatment and the pope is wrong to suggest it.

Yes, because what you believe is "bad treatment" is to say that homosexual marriage is wrong. I'm not apologizing for that.

While claiming you have gay friends.

Indeed I do.

Have you told "YOUR" gay friends that?

Seeing as this particular friend knew me from before I was a Christian? We've had this conversation.

I'm sure they would be disappointed that you don't think they should have the same rights as you. (civil, I'm not talking religious)

If you're arguing that Catholics should apologize for opposing Homosexual marriage, you're arguing that the Catechism takes a back seat to homosexual rights. I ain't ever going to apologize for sticking up for what the catechism teaches.

That's not a friend in my opinion.

Maybe someday you'll get to see under the mask, rah. I've lived with some and seen. Even now. One of my landladies was much the same and she, again felt she could talk to me. About pretty much everything. Was she happy, no? Did she confide some things that I'm not going to talk about here? Absolutely. Did some of her stories coincide with the stories that I've heard from every homosexual person that I've known? Yep.

Even after I became Catholic. She came with me a couple times to mass.

I've talked to enough people over the years that it seems pretty clear what's going on to me. That two people with very different lives had some sad similarities I find striking.

**Proteus_MST** · June 30, 2016, 20:41