Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Lorizael]

Also currently very amenable to bribery. Will repay by naming a star after you.

[Berzerker]

One, Christian bakers, and others are being stripped of their rights to freedom of association.

But you dont believe in freedom of association, you think gay marriage should be illegal. And gay marriage isn't the cause, a law requiring bakers to associate with gays is the cause.

Three, with adoption cases, Christian adoption agencies are being stripped of their right to adopt children.

Because of gay marriage?

Four, you have children being taken away from their parents. There's at least one case I've heard of where a former lesbian left her lover and is being threatened with loss of custody over her daughter. Which is bizarre, because the other woman is not biologically related to the daughter at all, and the child was the child of a previous relationship.

Because of gay marriage?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Anyone who wants to buy me off with a few bucks, you can send it to my Paypal ... I promise I won't decline it

Chuckled out loud at this.

[Ben Kenobi]

As I said back then. Because of everyone involved I was just going to stay quiet and not accept it. I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

But you just couldn't let it rest. You had to keep wanting recognition for it. So I finally told you why I didn't accept it. Because I didn't respect you and didn't want to be even close to being considered in your debt.

You could have sent me a PM, rah.

I get that. It had nothing to do with 'putting you in my debt'. That's the saddest part of this whole misunderstanding. *sigh*. It was from all three of us.

Your breaking your promise of not talking about it PROVES just why I didn't want to accept it. You have no honor.

No, rah. You had many chances to take the honorable way out here. I sucked up your abusive crap for years until I finally decided I had had enough.

Smearing someone publicly when they chose to do something kind to you in private, and respected that, and then you turned around and crapped on them.. meh. That's not honor.

I don't respect you, I will never respect you and trying to buy me off with a few bucks won't work. I can't be bribed by the likes of you. (and have turned down many bribes in my life)

It was a gift given from all three of us, rah.

I don't respect you, I will never respect you

That is obvious. Rather than go on a nice golfing evening with you and Ming and have a good time, you've chosen to crap on the folks who gave you a gift and you're out the nice evening.

Who's the real loser here?

[Ben Kenobi]

But you dont believe in freedom of association, you think gay marriage should be illegal. And gay marriage isn't the cause, a law requiring bakers to associate with gays is the cause.

If freedom of association governed marriage, then there would be no need for legal divorce. You'd just leave.

Freedom of association however, does protect private businesses.

[Giancarlo]

*double post* delete this.

[Giancarlo]

Christian bakers aren't being stripped of their freedom of association. Just because they make a cake doesn't mean they are endorsing anything. It's JUST A CAKE.

I would ask... have they ever baked a cake for a Jewish couple? How about an atheist couple? How about a Buddhist couple? Those aren't Christian marriages since they claim to only be in favor of Christian marriages. Bad argument, ben. Also, your argument doesn't really work when considering the history of segregation.

As far as this thread, the Pope says a lot but produces very little in the way of progress. He has even put himself at odds with nations that have legalized same sex marriage. Gay people aren't asking for forgiveness. I come from a Catholic background, but I don't let that conflict with my sexual orientation.

[rah]

That is obvious. Rather than go on a nice golfing evening with you and Ming and have a good time, you've chosen to crap on the folks who gave you a gift and you're out the nice evening.

Only because you had to have recognition and then couldn't keep your mouth shut like you promised. So don't talk about honor. You have none.

As always, the bad things that happen in your life are probably a result of your own actions.

But then what can I expect from a man that would refuse to walk his daughter down the aisle just because she was gay.
There is no bigger class of loser than that. You place religion before family and friends. And you think that makes you the bigger person. Guess what, it does the opposite.

I wonder if any of our other very religious posters could be as cold and cruel as you.

And don't think you can shame me on your bribe. You may not have originally intended it to be one, but you've certainly tried to turn it into one.
Your popping a few bucks entitles you to nothing from me. And if you think that not the way to act, you're the type of person that doesn't deserve civil behavior.
You're the lowest of lows.
Before you get married, explain to your wife that you will basically disown your children if they are gay. Somehow I don't think you'll be married to anyone you explain it to,.

And before you try to repeat that I know nothing about your life, I don't care. I don't want to. How you present yourself here is all we see, and we find it disgusting.

[Ben Kenobi]

First, interesting attempt at an insult... shows what a bigot you are for using it.

Butthurt is a slur now? Really?

Straw mans just don't cut it. As usual, just trying to change the subject because you have nothing valid to say

It's a lazy man's way of 'refuting' an argument. I could just as easily say, "strawman" and then negate your argument.

Just like slavery and women's rights... those "grand" traditions got swept away as well. Do you support slavery and limited women's rights?
And yes, bigots should be fined when they break the law and discriminate against people.

I didn't say fined. But it's interesting that you believe that the justice system is designed to fine people into oblivion. I suggest you reread the bill of rights again.

Gee... in Benland, marriage isn't about love. Classic.
Handicapped people can't get married if they can't consummate the wedding? Gee, tell that to a quadriplegic... tell him or her that they can't get married.

Actually, legally this is perfectly permissible, if you're married to someone and they become a quadriplegic, and they are unable to perform, you can divorce them. WRT To canon law, you can't contract a marriage unless you can consummate the marriage. Non consummation even for quadriplegics invalidates the marriage.

And you call yourself a Christian? I follow the teachings of love as taught by Jesus... do you?

Marriage requires conjugality. No conjugality, no marriage.

And what does the bible say about stoning people... or forcing a rapist to marry their victim... oh, and paying off the father.

Again, aren't you a Christian? Oh wait, you just quote the bible to point out the things that you disagree.

Again... you pick and choose from the bible only what you want... how nice.

That would have some meaning... if you were one of the atheists here. But you're a Christian or at least claimed to be. Why are you copying their anti-biblical arguments?

I'd rather go with what most people think then what a bigot like you thinks.

Wow. So does that mean that 5 years ago you rejected homosexual marriage because the majority of Americans support it?

If the majority of Americans reject homosexual marriage, does that mean you'll reject it too?

And some religions have their priests rape children... by the way, are you circumcised... all my Catholic friends were circumcised.

Interesting. You're willing to concede my argument that religion is evil? Why are you the member of a religion you consider to be evil?

It's a good thing most people disagree with you... and that number is going up and not down. Every day more people see the light.

Again, morality is not based on what the majority of the people believe. Never has, never will.

Gee... practicing homosexuality in public isn't against the law (unless it violates public decency standards), just like for non gays.

So you can't recall a time when homosexual people would ever be fined that amount. Thank you, Ming.

Homosexual acts in private were against the law in the past (and is still probably on the books in some states), and if convicted, they actually went to prison. The bakers got off far easier.

125k is 4x the annual income of Americans, would be the equivalent of 4 years in jail. Were the sentences 4 years in jail for men when sodomy was illegal?

“After careful review by our team, we have found the ‘Support Sweet Cakes By Melissa’ campaign to be in violation of our Terms and Conditions. The money raised thus far will still be made available for withdrawal. Support Sweet Cakes By Melissa’ campaign have been formally charged by local authorities and found to be in violation of Oregon state law concerning discriminatory acts. Accordingly, the campaign has been disabled.”

And you support this?

If they can find a legal way to fund raise, I have no problem with that.

There's no law against crowdfunding, Ming. If you believe that the Christian baker must be forced to service those to whom they disagree, so must the crowdfunders. What you want to argue is that you are free to do business with whomever you want, but that people who disagree with you cannot have the same freedoms.

This has come up many, many times, including under Jim Crow.

You can say that about every minority... your point.

So you're apparently ok with crushing some minorities but not others.

When was the last time that happened to a Catholic (well, a white Catholic)

We've already had one Catholic shot outside an abortion clinic. So, I'll say in the last couple of years. Now if we're talking Islamic terrorists, we've not yet had a Catholic priest. If we're talking Catholics, we just had one shot the other day by another Islamic terrorist. I'm sure it will happen, perhaps before the end of the year. If not, then surely on 9-11.

In my opinion, in many cases, it's too easy to get a divorce. I wish it would be harder, but with all the different state laws, I don't know how to do that fairly.

Divorce is one thing. Deliberately placing children in a home without a father or a mother is wrong. We can do better and should.

Not a social experiment at all. As noted before, the problem is with the bigots, not the social institution.

Yes, it is a social experiment. If it were about the children, why is Massachusetts shutting down Catholic adoption agencies?

[Ben Kenobi]

Christian bakers aren't being stripped of their freedom of association. Just because they make a cake doesn't mean they are endorsing anything. It's JUST A CAKE.

They offered to supply a plain cake. Their offer was declined. They offered to make the arrangements with a different bakery that was more than happy to supply them. This too, was declined.

You're right, this has nothing to do with a cake. It has everything to do with Sweet Cakes being owned by a Christian lady.

I thought the story was before that homosexual people were supposed to be tolerant, Giancarlo? You've demonstrated that is obviously not the case.

I would ask... have they ever baked a cake for a Jewish couple? How about an atheist couple? How about a Buddhist couple? Those aren't Christian marriages since they claim to only be in favor of Christian marriages. Bad argument, ben. Also, your argument doesn't really work when considering the history of segregation.

Are you arguing that a black baker must supply a KKKake? If not, why not? People have the freedom to associate with whomever they choose. If I don't want to write an article that supports homosexual marriage... I don't have to write an article that supports homosexual marriage. That's what freedom should be.

[rah]

Actually the black backer I know probably would supply a KKKAKE. OF course I'm sure the cake would have a secret ingredient.
Make money off making them eat ****. Win Win. It would be worth the fine if he got caught.

[Ben Kenobi]

Only because you had to have recognition and then couldn't keep your mouth shut like you promised. So don't talk about honor. You have none.

No, rah. You refused to go on the golf trip because spite meant more to you than having a good time with Ming. What can I say to that? Sucks to be you, I guess.

As always, the bad things that happen in your life are probably a result of your own actions.

Bad things? LOL

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

No, rah. you are the only one I've ever helped that I've regretted.

But then what can I expect from a man that would refuse to walk his daughter down the aisle just because she was gay.

And what is the alternative? Salt is worthless if it loses it's saltiness.

There is no bigger class of loser than that. You place religion before family and friends. And you think that makes you the bigger person. Guess what, it does the opposite.

"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Don't make me choose between two things that I love. You won't like the answer. Jesus is not making me choose between my love for my family and my love for Him. He is not saying, "if you don't support me in sin, you do not love me." If you're the one forcing me to choose, then that speaks volumes about you.

I wonder if any of our other very religious posters could be as cold and cruel as you.

I'm not the one dismissing a gift given by three people who respect you as a bribe, rah.

And don't think you can shame me on your bribe. You may not have originally intended it to be one, but you've certainly tried to turn it into one.

What bribe? You're the one asserting that I attempted to bribe you when there were three of us.

Your popping a few bucks entitles you to nothing from me. And if you think that not the way to act, you're the type of person that doesn't deserve civil behavior.

Would you dare say that to the other two people?

Before you get married, explain to your wife that you will basically disown your children if they are gay. Somehow I don't think you'll be married to anyone you explain it to,.

What makes you think she would go?

And before you try to repeat that I know nothing about your life, I don't care. I don't want to. How you present yourself here is all we see, and we find it disgusting.

If you don't care, why are you condemning me? For a choice you know nothing about?

[rah]

I don't care if people know I turned down your money because I think you're a douche. But every time you mention it I will just keep repeating that you will not walk you daughter down the aisle if she is gay and let people judge on their own who is the bigger monster. If you have no problem with that, keep trying to shame me with something that I am proud, feel free. And if you feel proud for not walking a gay child down the aisle and by doing so likely increase the odds that they would commit suicide due to your rejection, Fine. I'm not the one that has to live with that.

[Berzerker]

If freedom of association governed marriage, then there would be no need for legal divorce. You'd just leave.

you dont need a divorce to leave

Freedom of association however, does protect private businesses.

if freedom of association governed private businesses, then there would be no need for a legal contract

[Ming]

Butthurt is a slur now? Really?

Whatever... If you can't see it, you never will.

It's a lazy man's way of 'refuting' an argument. I could just as easily say, "strawman" and then negate your argument.

No... it's a coward's way of changing the subject so you don't have to address the fact that you are wrong

I didn't say fined. But it's interesting that you believe that the justice system is designed to fine people into oblivion. I suggest you reread the bill of rights again.

Never said it was... that's you trying to put words in my mouth. They broke the law (which you keep seeming to ignore) and got fined. Maybe they shouldn't have broke the law... maybe they should read the penal code.

Actually, legally this is perfectly permissible, if you're married to someone and they become a quadriplegic, and they are unable to perform, you can divorce them.

Gee... how christian of you. Sickness and in Health... Hmmm...

Marriage requires conjugality. No conjugality, no marriage.

Only in your definition. I'm sure a quadriplegic with a loving wife would disagree with you.

Again, aren't you a Christian? Oh wait, you just quote the bible to point out the things that you disagree.

And you ignore the bible... and only use it when it supports your point of view.
Aren't you a Christian?

That would have some meaning... if you were one of the atheists here. But you're a Christian or at least claimed to be. Why are you copying their anti-biblical arguments?

And why are you ignoring portions of the Bible... aren't you a Christian?

Wow. So does that mean that 5 years ago you rejected homosexual marriage because the majority of Americans support it?

Nope... I supported it knowing that the time would come eventually... which it did.

If the majority of Americans reject homosexual marriage, does that mean you'll reject it too?

Nope... I'm a man of principles... I support my gay friends, unlike you who claims you wouldn't even go to your own daughters wedding if she was gay.

Interesting. You're willing to concede my argument that religion is evil? Why are you the member of a religion you consider to be evil?

Why are you a member of a religion that has done evil things?

Again, morality is not based on what the majority of the people believe. Never has, never will.

Again... why are you the one that can dictate morality.

So you can't recall a time when homosexual people would ever be fined that amount. Thank you, Ming.

I remember a time when if they broke the law and got arrested, they did what the law required of them.
Thank You BK.

125k is 4x the annual income of Americans, would be the equivalent of 4 years in jail. Were the sentences 4 years in jail for men when sodomy was illegal?

If they hadn't broken the law, there wouldn't be a fine. And gee, if you asked people whether they would want to pay money or go to jail, I know what most people would respond.

And you support this?

I support that if people break the law, they should pay the fine or do the time.

There's no law against crowdfunding, Ming. If you believe that the Christian baker must be forced to service those to whom they disagree, so must the crowdfunders. What you want to argue is that you are free to do business with whomever you want, but that people who disagree with you cannot have the same freedoms.

Gee... the rules of the site were violated and the site took action... You want to twist that into something it isn't, your problem.

So you're apparently ok with crushing some minorities but not others.

Never said that... but you are the one whining about Catholics getting crushed while you want to crush gays...

We've already had one Catholic shot outside an abortion clinic. So, I'll say in the last couple of years. Now if we're talking Islamic terrorists, we've not yet had a Catholic priest. If we're talking Catholics, we just had one shot the other day by another Islamic terrorist. I'm sure it will happen, perhaps before the end of the year. If not, then surely on 9-11.

Islamic terrorists are targeting westerns... not specifically Catholics.
And yet again, you are whining about Catholics getting crushed and you don't seem to have a problem with Catholics oppressing others.

Divorce is one thing. Deliberately placing children in a home without a father or a mother is wrong. We can do better and should.

Deliberately leaving children in an institution instead of placing them in a loving home is simply wrong. All the children want is to be adopted and loved by somebody... but you would deny them that simply because of your bigotry against gays. That's not putting the child first.

Yes, it is a social experiment. If it were about the children, why is Massachusetts shutting down Catholic adoption agencies?

One more time... it's bigots like you who treat the kids poorly because they have gay parents is the real problem. If there weren't bigots like you, no social experiment.