Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[kentonio]

If your argument is that 13 is too young, by far the majority were ready and had adequate knowledge to proceed.

What should members of the Catholic church never say? For 50 please Alex.

[Ben Kenobi]

But, as you were a protestant before (and, I guess, received a protestant confirmation) doesn't that mean that you were, are and will always remain a protestant, regardless of any later catholic confirmation?

A rather clever and interesting question.

This actually touches on major issues I had before I came over. Yes, I received what the Mennonite church calls a profession of faith and baptism into the Mennonite church when I was 19. How the Mennonite Church interprets sacramentals is not the same as the Catholic church. In the Mennonite Church - Lutherans et al are different too. Mennonites see sacramentals as "baptism", "the Lord's supper" and "marriage". They only have 3 that they regard as sacraments. They do not have confession, ordination, or Last Rites.

I would argue that their "profession of faith" is the equivalent of "confirmation", but there are major, major differences between the two. In a profession of faith, you stand before the congregation and make your testimony. You do not make promises to God as in the Catholic church - there is not a set liturgy. You stand before the congregation and give your testimony. At that point you are received into the faith and considered to be a member of the congregation.

Baptism is similar, except that they do baptism by immersion and they do not baptize infants. They will also re-baptize those baptized as infants - which I received about a year after my profession of faith. I had serious issues when I was 19 with getting baptized again, but eventually did it after much convincing that I ought to choose my own faith, etc.

Marriage, is also similar - except they don't have any provisions for remarriage. You can divorce, but you cannot remarry after you've done so.

Sacramentally, it's a sea change between the Mennonite and the Catholic church, which is why my instructor focused on that when I came over because he realized how enormous the differences were in the understanding of the two.

How does the Mennonite church regard me? If you leave they don't consider you to have ever been a Mennonite. I am at this point shunned from my former congregation - though not, strangely, from my former pastor as he is a Pentecostal and Pentecostals don't work that way. But the congregation he is a part of would not permit me to return at this point. I don't think I've ever said much about this here. That was the cost I had to pay to become Catholic - in leaving most of my Mennonite friends behind. I am not and have not talked to any of them in 10 years. The last time being just prior to my confirmation when I offered to help a friend and I was not yet shunned from the congregation.

The other, also interesting question - my first baptism is in the Anglican church. Their sacramentals are more similar to the Catholic church. I would be permitted to return and believe I am still on their rolls. We had my father's funeral there, and my family still participates with the Church. They would have no issues with me returning and still regard me as Anglican. I have spent most of my life, if you count the period prior to 19, with them.

Personally, I am not fond of the Anglican church and what they have become, the Anglicans that I was baptized into, that church is gone. It's not coming back. Furthermore, I have come to understand just what the Anglicans taught as wrong. Their history is wrong -their interpretation of Catholicism is wrong - what they did to the priests, nuns, and bishops was wrong and their whole conception of themselves as a Church is wrong. We all were Catholic and we should have stayed Catholic, so I see myself as having returned to the faith of my fathers.

As for the Mennonites, they were good to me, and taught me much about my faith. I would not have found God without them, and I will always have a soft spot for them, even if I can never return.

[Giancarlo]

What should members of the Catholic church never say? For 50 please Alex.

13 is never too young according to Ben lmao.

Goodness me... This guy is a psycho.

[Giancarlo]

But, as you were a protestant before (and, I guess, received a protestant confirmation) doesn't that mean that you were, are and will always remain a protestant, regardless of any later catholic confirmation?

He changes his story every day. What a liar.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well given that it led to Jesus sacrifice washing away man's sins, and indeed the establishment of Christianity, are you saying that 'didn't work well'? How much of a heretic are you?

As Saint Paul goes on to say in Romans:

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

The Jews are the root and we are the branches.

[Ben Kenobi]

He changes his story every day. What a liar.

There are some who remember me as a Prot here, and remember my discussions as a protestant here. Odd enough were my defense of Catholic teachings on Contraception.

Gian - I was not raised a Christian, raised a nominal Anglican, baptized Anglican, but not confirmed.

Gave a profession of faith in the Mennonite church at 19, and baptized the year later. I left there and joined the Catholic church when I was 24. Confession the Saturday before, First communion and Confirmation together at the Easter Vigil with the Bishop of Vancouver at Kitsilano.

[kentonio]

As Saint Paul goes on to say in Romans:

The Jews are the root and we are the branches.

So in fact the peoples choice of Barabbas was actually just part of gods plan, and therefore exactly what was supposed to transpire for the desired effect. Something that you are utterly unwilling to accept as the case with Francis because you think you're cleverer than god.

[Ben Kenobi]

So in fact the peoples choice of Barabbas was actually just part of gods plan, and therefore exactly what was supposed to transpire for the desired effect. Something that you are utterly unwilling to accept as the case with Francis because you think you're cleverer than god.

The curious part is why that happened at all. Pilate had full authority - as Christ himself told Pilate - that Pilate had been given the authority from God to judge rightly. If they had chosen Jesus, how would things have changed? Would Pilate have denied their choice and kept Jesus locked up? Would he have released Christ, only to rearrest him and have him crucified? I don't know.

Jesus was sent by God to save the Jews. I can see God going... well - that is interesting! What will they choose? How will they choose? And it did not work well for the Jews, choosing Barabbas? Whom among them would have been spared had they chosen Christ? I don't know.

[Proteus_MST]

Thanks, Ben for the insights

He changes his story every day. What a liar.

Well, in case of the Baptism/Confirmation I have no doubts that it is what Ben believes/was told.

It is similar in Judaism, where you are considered to be a Jew for a lifetime even if you choose to become an agnostic.
And fundamentalist Islam also doesn't recognise conversions to other faiths ... if you convert to another faith you simply become a muslim apostate and therefore someone who belongs to the death row.

[Giancarlo]

Ben is an ultra conservative and he only speaks for himself.

[Bereta_Eder]

Nah I don't think ben is a catholic.
Not by a long shot.
true catholics tend to be antisemetic and homophobic (so he fills at least one parameter) but they are also compassionate down to earth people.

I think he is of that strange protestant cult.

granted never seen one because they are all atheists
but catholic?

not in a million years


he reminds me of this



the reason why nukes exist

[-Jrabbit]

Actually, quite germane to the discussion as of the age of reason.

Not really. Why? Well, as you yourself state:

A student cannot assess their own competence, that is my job. Their capacity is something else entirely.

See previous. This the own goal: your tacit admission that the students are not competent to make a decision of lifelong consequence.

Despite your professed wish to the contrary, all the church is doing by confirming pre-adults is creating people like Giancarlo et al. And the fact that the RCC apparently relies on a converted lay teacher to make these judgments on behalf of 8th-graders is further proof that such "confirmations" are not binding in any meaningful sense.

[Ben Kenobi]

your tacit admission that the students are not competent to make a decision of lifelong consequence.

You are confusing competence with capacity. Can a 13 year old make a lifelong decision? Yes, if they are properly equipped and educated. Is such a student able to assess whether they are competent if they are learning about the Catholic church? No. That applied equally to me. I had to have an interview with a priest who would assess me in the same fashion as I assess my students. Until he was satisfied with my progress he would not confirm me.

all the church is doing by confirming pre-adults is creating people like Giancarlo et al

You are free to hold your opinion, but you are wrong here.

And the fact that the RCC apparently relies on a converted lay teacher to make these judgments on behalf of 8th-graders is further proof that such "confirmations" are not binding in any meaningful sense.

If they had doubts about me, they would not have hired me, let alone keep me on for what will be my 7th year now.

[Ben Kenobi]

Nah I don't think ben is a catholic.
Not by a long shot.

Keep in mind - I became a Mennonite, April 15th, 2001 at Easter, taking my baptism then. I did my profession of faith earlier in the year in October of 2000. I did two years of catechism in RCIA - before I entered the Catholic church. I entered my catechesis classes in September of 2003, in preparation to join the Catholic church. I was a catechumen attending mass every week from September of 2003 all the way to March of 2005.

If you include the period from when I did my profession of faith in October of 2000, all the way to September of 2003, I spent less than 3 years committed solely to the Mennonite Church. If you include my formal entrance at Easter, to the formal entrance when I left, I spent 4 years. The longest period you can put me there for, is for four years and about 6 months.

I have spent 11 years as a Catholic now.

[Proteus_MST]

You are confusing competence with capacity. Can a 13 year old make a lifelong decision? Yes, if they are properly equipped and educated. Is such a student able to assess whether they are competent if they are learning about the Catholic church? No. That applied equally to me. I had to have an interview with a priest who would assess me in the same fashion as I assess my students. Until he was satisfied with my progress he would not confirm me.

You are free to hold your opinion, but you are wrong here.

If they had doubts about me, they would not have hired me, let alone keep me on for what will be my 7th year now.

Beliefs can change ...
actually you are a good example of this.
Could as well happened to you the other way round (i.e. baptised/confirmed in catholic faith and then changed tro another faith for whatever reasons).

Actually, I guess, most conversions take place during advanced adulthood